Lycanthropy

[Andras]

I hope making a second suggestion so quickly won't make me seem like someone who is going to make a few hundred suggestions...

Doesn't it seem odd that we encounter Talderus Redborn, and even during the encounter we begin to feel strange, but have no other side effect other than taking extra damage?

An interesting feature could be the ability to get infected during the fight.

My idea on how to set this up would be to force the player to transform randomly. When transformed, the player unequips their shield and weapon, fighting unarmed. The player also loses the ability to use powers.

It starts off as random. Then, once the adventures are completed (and you gain the power), it becomes under the players control. Perhaps I should have specified that better.

This would allow the player to choose when to enter wolf form or not, and choose when to fight with the Wolf bonuses or to fight without it.

If randomly even at the beginning is too risky, then it may be best to have the first transformation during the first adventure in the arc, and then it repeats at the start of each of those adventures, never effecting quests outside of the arc until the player is given control of it and can choose when to enter it or not.

When transformed, the player gets access to different quests in Sageholt. Since the background on Talderus describes him as loosing control and attacking other villagers, killing them. An adventure could be based around that. Then, when the player is in Human form, other adventures unlock.

Ultimately, an adventure leading to a Witch or some other hedgewizard would occur and the player could gain the power of Lycanthrope (may need a new name). The Witch/Wizard would aid in teaching the player to control the transformation and make it more advantageous.

When used outside of combat, the player enters or exits wolf-form. At the lowest levels of the power, in Wolf Form, the player doesn't get many if any bonuses. As the level increases, the character gets more bonuses from being in Wolf Form.

I was thinking the player would get SP and MR bonuses that increase as the player increases the power. In addition, at a high enough ranking, the player gets a special akin to weapon specials. Because the player loses access to weapons and shields, and even the ability to use Powers in combat, the increase in MR and SP should be enough to balance out the loss.


If the MR and SP bonus is high enough (or the player is simply out of NV), it may be worth it to enter Wolf form. Perhaps there could be another bonus, making it worth it.

[Lightwielder]

While I'm not sure as to how the GM would quite implement this, the idea seems pretty thought out.

This is the kind of change that I would want to give the character the choice of whether or not they want to take it, and not just automatically, "Oh, by the way, you're half-wolf now."

Still, while not necessarily opposed,I would still rather the GM focus on Adventures. Feel free to make suggestions, but just keep in mind that the general consensus seems to be that people want some things wrapped up first. In the future, some of these may make fine ideas, though.

[scout1idf]

...........Doesn't it seem odd that we encounter Talderus Redborn, and even during the encounter we begin to feel strange, but have no other side effect other than taking extra damage?................


Just thought of as another 'loose end' of the game in my opinion.....

[shadowblack]

My idea on how to set this up would be to force the player to transform randomly. When transformed, the player unequips their shield and weapon, fighting unarmed. The player also loses the ability to use powers.
Don't take this the wrong way. I don't mean to be rude or anything, but this is how I feel about this: Are you NUTS?!?! Do you realize how game-changing your suggestion is?

There are some opponents that can NOT be hurt by normal weapons (and that includes Unarmed Combat). To hurt them you can:
- use a magical weapon
- use a power
- buy a special ring from Tallys that allows you to hurt enemies even with non-magical weapons, or when unarmed

So what happens if you transform just when you're fighting such an opponent? If the transformation is in combat, then you can do NOTHING but wait for the enemy to kill you - since you are suddenly unarmed, unable to use powers AND unable to change equipment you can't hurt the enemy. Or you can flee if allowed.

If the transformation is outside combat you can equip the required ring - IF you have it. If you don't have it you're screwed.

Just imagine what will happen if you're in a PG scenario and not allowed to flee when suddenly you transform and find yourself unable to hurt your opponent. A loss just because Random hates you.

The solutions are:
- if you can transform during combat your only option is to constantly wear one of the rings that allow you to hit enemies immune to non-magical weapons. That means one of your ring slots is constantly taken, effectively limiting your ring slots to THREE! Not to mention the ATs locked in the ring
- if you can transform ONLY outside combat you are forced to buy one of the rings I mentioned and keep it with you at all times. Again some ATs are locked in that ring, but at least part of the time you can use all 4 ring slots. Just don't forget to change rings when you transform! But what happens if you transform and then end up in a situation where you MUST use a power to continue (such as in one of PG V's scenarios)?
- when transformed you can hurt opponents that are normally immune to non-magical weapons. That means you will no longer need the rings I mentioned - which makes the Wolf Form a must have. This option is a very significant change, especially if in Wolf Form you get specials that inflict damage similar to most weapon specials


Or did you imagine the transformation thing to work similarly to the Medallion Of Phase Form?

Again, no offense, but losing the ability to use weapons, shields, AND powers is a very significant change (even if it is only temporary). Are you sure you've considered all possibilities and everything that'll be affected by such a change?

[Young Ned]

Most of those objections could be overcome if the transformation was completely under the player's control, rather than occurring randomly. If you can choose when to change to wolf, or back to human, then it's not a problem.

Another way: a werewolf in wolf form could be considered a magical creature, so its claws and teeth could then be considered magical weapons.

[Badstench]

I'm not so sure about your observation Shadowblack... you said:
Do you realize how game-changing your suggestion is?
It's not game-changing at all. We already have an elixir that can gift us with 'Battle-rage'.

Couldn't an infection of wolf-blood enhance that ability?

I mean... I think it would be cool if a description came up while you were fighting, for example, one of the Lords of Ogredom...

"The moon shows a full face. You change into a wolf and deliver 50 ponts of rabies damage."

I'm kidding

And not.

[Andras]

It starts off as random. Then, once the adventures are completed (and you gain the power), it becomes under the players control. Perhaps I should have specified that better.

This would allow the player to choose when to enter wolf form or not, and choose when to fight with the Wolf bonuses or to fight without it.

If randomly even at the beginning is too risky, then it may be best to have the first transformation during the first adventure in the arc, and then it repeats at the start of each of those adventures, never effecting quests outside of the arc until the player is given control of it and can choose when to enter it or not.

Since I did list the ability as a power, the player would be able to use it in combat as well, to transform out of it if needed (allowing the use of Powers again). This would allow the player to use powers again, at the cost of a turn and another NV.

Lightwielder, given how most games work, even if my ideas were to be used, I wouldn't expect them to appear for a very long time.

[shadowblack]

It's not game-changing at all. We already have an elixir that can gift us with 'Battle-rage'.

Couldn't an infection of wolf-blood enhance that ability?
Battle Rage is something entirely different from what was suggested here. It doesn't affect whether you can use powers and it doesn't affect whether you can use weapons and shields. It merely grants you a few extra 20s. As far as I can tell the power suggested here doesn't affect your rolls at all (so even if you transform you can still roll a 1 or a 2). Instead it forces you to fight unarmed and without powers.

If randomly even at the beginning is too risky, then it may be best to have the first transformation during the first adventure in the arc, and then it repeats at the start of each of those adventures, never effecting quests outside of the arc until the player is given control of it and can choose when to enter it or not.
Yes, this way it'll be fine.

[thingirl]

The idea sounds nice, except for the fact that the MR you lose when dropping a shield (and for some people, switching to Unarmed) just isn't worth it.

If randomly even at the beginning is too risky, then it may be best to have the first transformation during the first adventure in the arc, and then it repeats at the start of each of those adventures, never effecting quests outside of the arc until the player is given control of it and can choose when to enter it or not.

Yes, that's about the only viable way.

[Oldschool]

Well since in the limited times I've encountered the concept (mostly D&D campaigning) it's generally considered a "curse" there should be some downsides to it. And most of the following comes from a D&D perspective. And lets not forget the GMs "steepage" (I know it's incorrect but it has a nice ring) in D&D.

If it were just implemented as a combat effect (even after an adventure or series) it would be a simple thing to control the mechanic. Just put limitations on it as with the FoD, WoD, etc.

However the potential is there for so much more. For example, not only should there should be some negations to it's combat enhancing abilities but others as well. The effect on alignment being but one.

Having it completely unfettered runs the risk of having it capable of dominating the game or at least the combat system.

Let's not forget the fact that damage could be taken while transforming from armor constriction till straps break, etc. Also how many werecreatures (especially in the early time of the disease) are going to be worried about that busted pack and its contents laying on the ground. Or recall where it was once they return to normal. Townsfolk wanting to slay said evil creature. Just to mention a few.

I like the idea of first having it and not being able to control it. Then one could gain the ability to control it as the disease progresses. When I say this I mean control the transformation. Controlling the wanton evil desires while transformed - nope. After all we're not talking about noble creatures. The decision of the player to either try to eradicate the evil disease or embrace and control its (manifestation) could play a big role in alignment.

Just my thoughts. Implemented as strictly another combat option even following an initial adventure or several could be easily done by the GM. Relatively depending on any associated adventures of course.

Implementing it as a full on game mechanic would be another thing all together. Not that I'm at all against it because truthfully it could be one with great promise and potential.

Plus, and the D&D'ers may wax nostalgic, wouldn't it be cool to have Wolfsbane, Belladona, Holy Water and silver weapons.

[Andras]

Oldschool, you bring up a lot of good points but I am forced to wonder about the effectiveness of some parts.

You mentioned D&D, something I have never actually actively participated in so I do not know of anything I could reference from it.

Let's not forget the fact that damage could be taken while transforming from armor constriction till straps break, etc. Also how many werecreatures (especially in the early time of the disease) are going to be worried about that busted pack and its contents laying on the ground. Or recall where it was once they return to normal.

This does make sense but there are some issue. If I were to risk lose my gear permanently, why would I ever want to use this ability? Imagine using it in the middle of a quest and never being able to get it back. My character would become horribly weakened. Now, there are some ways around this.

My first and immediate thought being a recovery service. It could cost gold to use but we would reobtain our gear making the ability not worthless to use. I assume it wouldn't be impossible to resummon our gear to use using magic (or using conjuration to bring it back to us).

Another issue with the same idea would be the extreme loss of MR, SP, and NV from losing all of our gear (which is why I originally stated only the weapon and shield, since I imagine holding them would be more difficult with paws/claws). The only way I can imagine balancing this would be to make the bonuses from transforming worth using despite the loss of gear. Of course, make it too strong and there is no reason to not use it, while too weak and there is no reason to use it. I am trying to think of a way to make it usable for all as another option, but not unbalancing.

How much of an MR and SP boost would be enough to be worth shifting? Would adding Unarmed MR boost make it more balanced (I originally listed that simply because, at 100 Unarmed, 72 MR is a lot, and with any boost from transforming, it could even out).

I just thought of this as well. In wolf form, if all powers are disabled and we are unable to harm enemies that are immune to us, we would be unable to do anything. If we swap out and lose all of the bonuses from wolf-form and lose all of our gear, we are probably dead as well. So a medium, perhaps. Instead of being able to enter and leave wolf form in battle, using the Lycanthrope (Shapeshifting perhaps?) Power in battle while human does nothing, while using using it as a wolf deals damage (although not the greatest damage, since then it would be too overpowered, so some damage but enough to kill your opponent).



Now for the story part of it. It would likely be difficult to add Lycanthrope to all the previous quests. It would be interesting though. I certainly agree that it should have an alignment consequence (or aid if you desire to be evil). Perhaps being a wolf would have limitations on entering towns and what not. Although, this might severely limit the use, once again. What is the point of attempting to dedicate to this combat style if you can't even get to the areas where you can start adventures?

[Scarbrow]

I like this idea. Not because it's feasible (some of its roots conflict gravely with the Sryth combat system), but because it's damn cool. It's also a great hook for adventures (spying as a wolf, communicating with other wolfs, seeing the life from the eyes of the prey (monster being hunted by adventurers, instead of the other way)). It's freaking cool. Even the Alignment doubts Oldschool mentioned could add spice to some adventures, or they could even become the spark that will finally give Alignment some reason to be.

However, its implementation into a working Sryth module is difficult. I think the most probable scenario would be a series of quest where you would be transformed (initially against your will) and later learning to transform to fight against the evil wizard transforming you. At the end of your learning process, you would receive a combat-usable item, usable also out of combat, that would transform you.

The need for an item instead of a power is to avoid the need for NVs, and the associated problems with tweaking the rest of the powers. You just use your item, and become a werewolf. Use it again, and become human again. I think the suggested approach would be OK: unequip weapon and shield (thus reducing your MR), and fight with teeth and claws. However, you shouldn't benefit from Unarmed Combat while in a wolf state, because that would make what it's already a powerful skill into a game-breaker. Instead, you fight with your (magical, no need for Wyryxyn rings) natural weapons.

About the effect on armor, I think it depends what kind of werewolf we're thinking about. If you're thinking on a powerful beast which grows with the transformation, the armor would be a problem indeed. You could lose your armor (if you're wearing it) and have to repair it, but that would need tweaking how items work now, to allow them to be functional/broken depending on the case. A case with less impact would mean a less drastic transformation where your body does change its shape, but it doesn't grow, so you can keep your armor on. Although it won't protect you as effectively as if it were tailored to be a werewolf armor, the increase in hair/toughness would make for it, keeping your SP the same. That way the mechanical change is minimal (of course, I'm thinking of the kind of werewolf which retains more-or-less human figure, this approach would not fit a wholly wolf form).

About MR, the main problem is the loss of enhancement from your weapon and shield. I think you should cope with that MR decrease (if you keep your MR and SP, what's the point of changing your shape?) and your bite should cause a special effect (drain enemy's SP to recover yours, immobilize your enemy allowing you to flee...) but no great damage. That way, the werewolf form would become a strategic resource to use against certain enemies, and only for a few rounds (that's in combat, of course; out of combat, where limits are less strict, you could have bonuses to Woodsmanship to find your way using your nose, or any other narrative advantages and disadvantages).

Another interesting option is that Werewolf form would have advantages against certain types of enemies (beasts?) so in fact turning into a Werewolf would be akin to changing your weapon to another one with bonuses against that enemy type. You could even extend that to a variety of shapechanging "stances", wolf being one of them, all behind the Shapechanging power.

So, in short, too cool not to address somehow.

[Oldschool]

Nice post Scarbrow and I agree - too cool not to address.

Plus as I said before it'd be a nice bit of nostalgia to have Wolfsbane, Belladona, etc... in game.

[thingirl]

Hey, what it the Tattered Wolf Items got a boost while you're in Wolf form. Or maybe some level of the Cave will grant this? Just a thought....