Gay-bashing related suicides in September

[psychoadept]

MOD EDIT: This topic started on the Tributes, memorials, remembrances... (http://srythforum.com/showthread.php?p=41139#post41139) thread. It was moved here because it was getting offtopic.


There are four that have been very high-profile, at least that I've encountered. And apparently more that haven't received as much attention.

Ellen said it better than I can:
http://www.facebook.com/#!/video/video.php?v=592846987806&ref=mf

http://thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/septembers-anti-gay-bullying-suicides-there-were-a-lot-more-than-5/discrimination/2010/10/01/13297

I want to scream. I want to tear my hair out. I want to apologize to these kids for not changing fast enough, not growing fast enough to be able to silence the voices that say they're not worthy of respect and love, that made them believe they're not worthy of LIFE. All I can do is move forward. Do more, work harder, get better. IT WILL END.

[texlaw1992]

He started a new website to help kids facing these situations. I forgot the web address, but it's worth a look. I'm sure someone can link to it.

Edit: Dariel's link is to Dan Savage's main site, but it references the site I mentioned.

[Dariel]

Is it this? (http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/SavageLove?oid=5007055)

[spencer]

There are four that have been very high-profile, at least that I've encountered. And apparently more that haven't received as much attention.

Ellen said it better than I can:
http://www.facebook.com/#!/video/video.php?v=592846987806&ref=mf

http://thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/septembers-anti-gay-bullying-suicides-there-were-a-lot-more-than-5/discrimination/2010/10/01/13297

I want to scream. I want to tear my hair out. I want to apologize to these kids for not changing fast enough, not growing fast enough to be able to silence the voices that say they're not worthy of respect and love, that made them believe they're not worthy of LIFE. All I can do is move forward. Do more, work harder, get better. IT WILL END.

I completely agree, PA, it must, it can and it will end.

[psychoadept]

Thanks, guys. It's good to know I'm not the only one who cares. :)

[thingirl]

My thoughts:

I do not support the gay/lesbian lifestyle. It is not Biblical, and on top of that, it is not good for a family structure. I want to make it clear that I wish that the homosexual lifestyle was not practiced.

However, that said, if anyone I meet or know is or becomes gay, I will not shun them. I will welcome them, but I will also make it know that, while I respect them as a person, I do not respect that choice. I wish these suicides had not happened. Human life is to be valued extremity highly. If you wish to speak out against the homosexual lifestyle, it should be by positive methods, not bullying. Certainly nothing that will lead someone to take their own life.

~ Thingirl

[texlaw1992]

... that assumes homosexuality is a choice, which I think all recent studies show is not the case.

By the same token, however anyone feels about the cause, I think everyone can agree that the outcome (bullying / suicide) is to be condemned and, to the extent possible, stopped in its tracks.

[Young Ned]

... that assumes homosexuality is a choice, which I think all recent studies show is not the case.

Nobody but a masochist would choose to be something which causes as much condemnation and hatred as being gay or lesbian in this society. Homosexual people have no choice in the matter; they were born that way, apart from a rare few who may have been driven by abuse from the opposite sex to take refuge in same-sex relationships.

By the same token, however anyone feels about the cause, I think everyone can agree that the outcome (bullying / suicide) is to be condemned and, to the extent possible, stopped in its tracks.

Agreed. Hating someone because of their sexual orientation, or skin color or gender for that matter, is very un-Christian. Jesus was all about love, not hate. "The greatest commandment is to love one another as you love yourself", or however that goes. Not to mention "judge not, lest you be judged yourself"...

[Doolipalally]

However, that said, if anyone I meet or know is or becomes gay, I will not shun them. I will welcome them, but I will also make it know that, while I respect them as a person, I do not respect that choice.

I agree with Texlaw and Young Ned - in most cases it's not a 'choice'. However, they've made that point so I won't belabour it. I just wanted to add that many people are not going to feel 'welcomed' by you if you also make it clear that you disapprove of the way they live their life. If someone acts in a friendly way towards me but also tells me that something about my life is 'wrong' or 'bad' then I'm not going to feel that their friendship is genuine.

The only way to make someone feel truly welcome in a community is to accept them for what they are, without reservation. If what they are clashes with your beliefs, then you may have to make a choice between upholding those beliefs and fully welcoming others.

TG, I realise that your intentions are good, but I think you might not be fully aware of how your actions and reactions can come across to others who don't come from the same background as you.

[thingirl]

@ Tex and YN:

If homosexuality was entirely genetic and cannot be changed, then my stance would change. I would say I accept them and their lifestyle, but I would also make it clear that I am not that way and will not do anything to support it. However, homosexuality is not entirely genetic.

(Time for a science lesson...) Genetics is not the sole determining factor in most human behaviors/traits. Your DNA provides a possible range, and your environment determines where in that range your traits are. For example, I have dark hair, but it starts to go blond if I'm out in the sun for too long. And tans also are an excellent example. In both examples, the pigmentation changes slightly depending on the environment. Weight is another. There's the guy who does almost nothing, but yet is fit and not overweight; but then there's the heavy guy who eats right and exercises rigirously, but yet can't drop very many pounds. the second guy can get fit, but it takes much more work. That's all genetics AND environment.

Anyway, the NARTH (National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality) says (http://www.narth.com/docs/hom101.html)
Although not supported by the research, many therapists believe that homosexuality is solely biological in nature, and therefore unchangeable. Yet despite ongoing efforts, researchers have not discovered a biological basis for same-sex attractions. In fact, many researchers hypothesize that a homosexual orientation stems from a combination of biological and environmental factors. For example, when asked if homosexuality was rooted solely in biology, gay gene researcher, Dean Hamer, replied, "Absolutely not. From twin studies, we already know that half or more of the variability in sexual orientation is not inherited. Our studies try to pinpoint the genetic factors...not negate the psychosocial factors" (Anastasia, 1995, p. 43). In addition, brain researcher Simon LeVay has acknowledged that multiple factors may contribute to a homosexual orientation (LeVay, 1996).

[homosexual attractions are] feelings [that] typically stem from a combination of temperamental factors and environmental factors that occur in a child's life.

I haven't read the whole article (http://www.narth.com/docs/hom101.html), but it is saying what I believe: Homosexuality is not completely biological.



@ Dooli: I see what you're saying, and I do not disagree. If it's someone I've know for a while, my opinion of them won't change. I'd try to get them help in some way.

@ All: It seems that the general consensus is that, no matter your views on homosexuality, these suicides are wrong in the deepest sense of the word.

[Doolipalally]

Anyway, the NARTH (National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality)

Thing is, the name of this organisation does rather give away the fact that it has an agenda. It's hard for me to believe that a body which states in its name that homosexuals need 'therapy' is capable of truly unbiased research.


Homosexuality is not completely biological.

I freely admit that I don't know the science. There may well be environmental factors as well. That still doesn't mean that people have a 'choice'.

I believe that my own behaviour in life is governed by a whole host of factors: my genes, my upbringing, my experiences or lack of them. Just because an aspect of my personality has been built into me by my environment rather than my biological make-up doesn't mean I have a choice about how I behave or react.

One example (trivial, but the best I can do at the moment): I don't feel I choose what music I like and dislike. I just react to what I hear. It seems unlikely my genes are telling me that I hate rap music, but that doesn't mean I can change that fact. My environment and experiences have shaped my reaction to what I hear.



@ All: It seems that the general consensus is that, no matter your views on homosexuality, these suicides are wrong in the deepest sense of the word.

Almost. I feel that the suicides are a tragedy. What's 'wrong' is that there are people in the world who feel the need to persecute, to make the lives of others literally unbearable, because they are 'different'.

[psychoadept]

After a lot of typing, I have erased all the very rational, well-reasoned points I could have made.

The tragedy, in my mind, is that the boys who killed themselves didn't understand this:

http://queersecrets.tumblr.com/post/882580431

They only heard the harsh screams. Because there weren't enough people doing this:

http://naytinalbert.blogspot.com/2010/06/i-hugged-man-in-his-underwear-and-i-am.html

[texlaw1992]

Dan Savage has a good letter of the day on his SLOG site (I think it was Monday or Tuesday) with a woman who wrote explaining that she was firmly opposed to homosexuality on moral and religious grounds, but always taught her children never to tease or bully anyone for any reason, including that they might be gay.

With his usual aplomb, Dan refused to apologize, saying that attitude was equivalent to telling her kids not to tease or bully anyone who might be gay because they were going to hell anyway.

It was a bit overly harsh on his part, but it was an interesting point.

[Scarbrow]

Psychoadept has made a very strong point. His post is wonderful, and duly repped. I'm almost tempted to do the same. But I won't. Prepare for the rant.

First of all, I would like to thank you all for your assertive and civil behaviour. It is difficult to believe this is happening on the Internet, even if this forum should have ceased to amaze me by now. For this, I've repped all of you, good netizens.

Second. I do not share your view, Thingirl. Quite the opposite. But since you are presenting it calmly and levelly, I'll join the discussion (I usually tend to shun people (or at least, discussions) proposing that point of view). Also, I'd like to bring up a fact from the start: my sister is a lesbian, so this hits pretty close to home. I also got a gay uncle, and both gay, lesbian and bisexual friends, so I think I have a rather complete collection of viewpoints about this topic. For more reference, Wikipedia rules (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality)

Third, in this argumentation I'm going to touch themes of adult nature. I will try no to be explicit, but if you feel I'm overstepping, please say so and I'll edit my post. I explicitly give my fellow moderators permission to edit out anything that might be offensive.

Now I'll comment Thingirl's first post about this subject, part by part.

I do not support the gay/lesbian lifestyle. It is not Biblical,
The offensive part, for me, is in the "lifestyle" word. I also support the view that homosexuality is not "chosen" but rather is a part of oneself. As such, it's not so much a "lifestyle" (as if I chose to skate, or to play chess) as a way of being (as if I couldn't drink milk because I was allergic). But I'll delve deeper into it later.

About the Biblical reference, it is not important if you are a believer or not. It is an Argument from authority (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority), and as such a fallacy. I will not discuss it.

and on top of that, it is not good for a family structure.
Why? Family structure is a matter of stable bonds, love and well-care for the children. If there is at least a responsible adult, caring and loving, there can be a family. Sadly, it too often happens that even two adults, without distinction of gender, do not fully provide for the needs of their children, either physical or emotional. But how a stable homosexual couple should be different from a heterosexual one?

I will tell you my sister is married. She and her wife have been together for more than 12 years now (they married as soon as they were legally able), and are now planning to have children. They're a lovely couple (one of the best matched ones I know), who always confront problems together and openly discuss matters. They'll be two excellent mothers, I assure you that. What in that is so bad for "family structure"?

I want to make it clear that I wish that the homosexual lifestyle was not practiced.
This is the second part of the "lifestyle" discussion. I'd like you to please explain what do you mean by "lifestyle". Because I see two things that might be the homosexual lifestyle. One is the mere fact that they're homosexuals, and have decided to be open about it, forming couples (as opposed to another "homosexual lifestyle" that means hiding and pretending they're "normal"). And another one is some peculiar fashions that thrive among the gay/lesbian movement.

As I said before, I have a gay uncle. He was unfortunate enough to be born and growing up in the repressive society of the time. A short history lesson: Up to 1975, Spain was a dictatorship. From the Spanish Civil War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Civil_War) in 1936 to his death in 1975, Francisco Franco (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_Franco) ruled with hand of steel. There's a brief summary of his oppresion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_Franco#Political_oppression) on his article. Among other things, Catholic church became the only source of truth. And we all know what are the Catholics views on homosexuals. They are considered perverts and deviates at the very least, when not mentally ill. Several programs were conducted to "reeducate" them (although this happened throughout the whole world at that time, including the USA). However, the effect this had on society was devastating. Several whole generations were taught to despise, hate, condemn and mistreat homosexuals. Strong traces of it are still present today. Thus, my uncle had no real option. He married. He lived a miserable life and a miserable marriage, that ended (fortunately, for the times changed) with a divorce. He has performed the role of father (for the had a son) as well as he's been able during the years. And fortunately, he's managed to accept himself and find a stable relationship with another man (who will come with us to the next family wedding next Saturday, I must add). But my uncle is 56 years old now. He's had basically his infancy, adolescence, and youth negated. He has been forced to behave in a way he didn't wanted, to do things he didn't wanted to do, for social pressure. And now he must rebuild his life with all that weight behind him. That's where others "not accepting" your "lifestyle" will take you, if you don't have strong support of a relatively open society like the present one. Should he maybe have remained in hiding, "in the closet" as it's popularly said? Should he have remained denying his true self to pacify those who "wish that the homosexual lifestyle was not practiced"?

Think about the consequences before you boldly state things as that. You are in some way forgiven beforehand for your young age. But in youth are seeded the beliefs that will later grow to become hate.

However, that said, if anyone I meet or know is or becomes gay, I will not shun them. I will welcome them, but I will also make it know that, while I respect them as a person, I do not respect that choice.

If you wish to speak out against the homosexual lifestyle, it should be by positive methods, not bullying.

The problem is, even through those positive methods (we're talking positively here, don't we?) you're effectively communicating a message of non-acceptance. Welcoming somebody is like having a friend: maybe you don't share every viewpoint or activity with him or her, but you don't pass judgement. If you see something you don't like, but you really believe they have the right to do it (be it extreme snowboarding, or dancing in their underwear for Pride Day) you just shut up and mind your own business. Surely there's things you do that they consider improper, and they are not berating you for those. Acceptance, tolerance, is allowing others to live their life their way to earn the right to live your life your way.

And that's the last part about "lifestyle". So they want to dress "queer"? Let them. So they want to throw a parade? Well, Catholics have parades for a whole week (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_week) in my country. Traffic gets redirected, they have their party, and when it all ends, we all continue our lives. Why should gays be treated differently?



It's been a long rant: as I warned, it hit pretty close to home. While I could continue, I think I've expressed myself enough with this. I hope I haven't offended anybody around here.
Obviously I've kept to myself a lot of things I could have said, specially about gay customs and lifestyle. The early warnings were written long before I had exhausted myself with the rest. If somebody wants extra details, I can go into them

~Scarbrow

[Zedalion]

Hi,

I’ll weigh in, with only my own opinion.

I am in fact a biologist, a behavioral ecologist more specifically, and I’ve read a few peer-reviewed papers on this topic.

The point thingirl and others have made, that behavioral patterns are a complex result of genetics and environment, is quite correct. However, the evidence does appear to support the idea that sexual attraction, as behaviors go, is fairly hard-wired and difficult or impossible to modify. It is also observed among other members of the animal kingdom.

In my own experience, I certainly don’t remember making a conscious decision to be attracted to females. One day, I simply was. In fact, even today, I certainly don’t ‘decide’ whether I’m attracted to one person or another. It just happens, outside of any decision-making on my part. I find it difficult to imagine that it’s any different for homosexuals.

And that’s what I think.

[Elrond]

Looks like we need an LGBT thread! The discussion of the issue is out of place in this thread.

[Scarbrow]

Looks like we need an LGBT thread! The discussion of the issue is out of place in this thread.

Agreed and moved.

[Young Ned]

Some awesome responses to this thread, and I am amazed by how politely and respectfully people are discussing this, even when they disagree with each other.

Very interesting article today in my hometown newspaper about Dan Savage's It Gets Better project, specifically aimed at LGBT teens in despair: Dan Savage overwhelmed by gay outreach's response (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/10/08/MNVJ1FP6E1.DTL).

[spencer]

I have not really chimed in, so I will briefly. There have been many excellent, civil points made and I really don't have that much to add. I will say that I am Methodist and, while not a Biblical scholar, I will only add here that while there are passages that speak out against homosexuality there are also passages that state "WHOEVER believes in God...will have everlasting life." That is all that I will say from a Biblical perspective. Like most of you here, I agree that being gay is not a choice; it is how a person was made, simple as that. I strongly believe in tolerance for all of our cultural, sexual, environmental and racial differences. I have met homosexuals who were real buttheads, but know many more who are kind, respectful loving people. I have many heterosexuals who are real buttheads, but , again the vast majority are kind, respectful loving people. Tolerance is the key and with that comes acceptance and a fervent hope that we can at some point all live in peace.

[Badstench]

Hmmmm... a subject that touches the sensibilities of belief and moralism.

A subject I have very strong feelings abuot.

so strong that I can alienate people.... there is no grey area here... the dividing line is stark and uncompromising.

It's "them" and "us"

So I choose to stay silent on this, except to acknowledge thingirl... you spoke your belief, and I admire your courage for speaking out.

Do I agree?

In a certain way I do, but not for the reasons you espoused. There is something much more simple to this topic which no one seems to address.

With that tantalising enigma... I leave you to your discussion.


With this warning... "If you ever try to explain homosexuality through scriptures of holiness, I will whack you over the head with the Talmud, the Qaran, the Bible and whatever it is Bhuddists read until you're meshed with the pulp of the pages."

It is what it is

Your belief is yours.

[thingirl]

First, I'm sorry I didn't get around to this sooner. The weekends get hectic over at my house!


Second, while I could have a further argument to defend my position, I choose not to. I'm just a dumb teenager with strong convictions who's not afraid to voice them and get in trouble. :rolleyes: And I have done that and gotten "rebuked" by my elders. So I will say that, while my convictions have not changed much, I will not try to explain or defend them any more.



Third...

With this warning... "If you ever try to explain homosexuality through scriptures of holiness, I will whack you over the head with the Talmud, the Qaran, the Bible and whatever it is Bhuddists read until you're meshed with the pulp of the pages."

LOL! Don't forget the Book of Mormon, basic Greek and Roman myths, Native American beliefs, and a whole host of others! :p

[Dariel]

Actually, many Greek myths and characters would be homosexual, I personally have not heard of one discouraging/hating homosexuality. Some would say that Ancient Greece actually started homosexuality, or at least got it kicking.

[texlaw1992]

Further to Dariel's point, I believe that's how the phrase "going Greek" originated (no, I won't tell you what it means, look it up, lol).

[Scarbrow]

I'm just a dumb teenager with strong convictions who's not afraid to voice them and get in trouble. :rolleyes: And I have done that and gotten "rebuked" by my elders. So I will say that, while my convictions have not changed much, I will not try to explain or defend them any more.

I for one wouldn't mind more explaining. I mean, from this conversation it's more or less clear where the consensus is among the majority of the people who have spoken, but it never hurts to hear more reasons. Shutting up just because you've been confronted only leads to keep believing the same you believed before, but with more fear to voice your beliefs. And that's not good, I think. Any talk should be allowed, except maybe hate talk. And yours don't look like that to me.

Also, I don't think any person able to plainly state her beliefs and stay by them with the force of reason is dumb, by any measure. After all, if you select a collection of axioms different from mine and use the same logic, you'll arrive to different conclusions. But that doesn't mean you used wrong logic, just different premises.

But that's just my preference for long, reasoned arguments; of course you can just drop the matter by not following it, it's your choice.

[Young Ned]

What Scarbrow said. And I apologize if any of my comments seemed like rebukes to you; they were not intended so.

[thingirl]

There I go imitating my mom again: insulting myself as part of an exit from an argument that I'm not having fun with anymore to try to smooth it over. Then again, she treads more hostile waters than I. I suppose this forum really is a rarity.

[Lightwielder]

That's what I love about this Forum. People are treated with respect here. Like in a family, we can disagree(even sharply) on almost any matter, but it doesn't change how we think of each other. :)

(...because we're awesome like that)

[psychoadept]

I spent quite a bit of last night typing away at an essay-length reply (similar to the one I started to make before and erased), not responding to anything in particular but laying out my perspective on the attitude that being LGBTetc is "wrong" as a person who IS LGBTetc identified AND believes that god made me this way and loves me unconditionally. Not sure if I should actually post it, I don't want to reboot the thread if everyone else is done talking about it. It seems I'd mostly be preaching to the choir, anyway. :)

Yes/no?

[Scarbrow]

I would very gladly hear (or rather, read) it.

Besides, this thread was already a spinoff. In would be a really on-topic addition, a rare occurrence around here ;)

[psychoadept]

Okay, you asked for it! :)

First of all, my life has been insane the past few weeks so my ability to contribute to the conversation has been severely limited, even though I did start the topic. Sorry! Also, I'm moved that the conversation has had such depth and thrilled to see everyone discussing things civilly. It just reinforces my belief that this forum is awesome.

Let me preface the rest of what I say with this: I don't assume that I am the only person in this forum who identifies somewhere on the LGBTQI... spectrum, but at the moment I seem to be the only person speaking as such. For that reason, I want to make it clear that I'm not trying to represent an entire group of people or put words in anyone else’s mouth. I can only speak for myself, from my own experiences.

@Thingirl: Please don't ever be silent about your beliefs just because others disagree with them. I would rather you (or anyone) honestly disagree with me than be silent for fear of controversy, and I respect you for the strength of your convictions and the courage to speak them. I admire your parents, too, for making the effort to raise their child(ren) according to their values, rather than blaming the schools and society for failing to teach them.

I hope that you also have the courage to challenge your beliefs, to test them against different beliefs and temper them with your own experiences. The former is largely under your own control – are you willing to seek out contrasting information and consider it with an open mind? The latter is not as much, because experience is a factor of time and circumstances outside your control, but you are in control of how much you learn from each experience as it comes.

Let me ask you two questions:
1) Have you had the experience of a strong emotional/physical attraction yet? The sort of attraction that makes it difficult to think about anything else when the person is around, where you’re just dying for that person to pay attention to you/talk to you/spend time with you, that sort of thing?
2) Aside from the fact that it’s “not Biblical”, what do you personally know about the “homosexual lifestyle”? And what makes something “good for family structure”?

continued in next post...

[psychoadept]

@All (aka The Essay):
I have no quibble with anyone who sincerely believes, on the basis of their faith, that homosexual sexual activity, and/or homosexual relationships, are sinful. There are plenty of very logical arguments to the contrary, but faith is faith. I can’t disprove the belief that homosexual sex is sinful any more than someone could disprove my belief that god made me the way I am and loves me unconditionally. Also, all behavior is a choice, barring the effects of certain neuromuscular disorders. It's influenced by instinct, brain chemistry, habits, feelings and beliefs, but it is a choice. I can’t imagine that anyone in the history of the world has had sex by accident (consent is a different story , but that’s a major tangent from the current topic).

So as far as the belief that the activity itself is sinful goes, I don’t share it but I don’t feel the need to waste time arguing with someone who does. It’s their business. And if a person who experiences homosexual attraction chooses not to act on it based on their religious convictions, that’s a valid choice.

I have two major problems with the way LGBT-identified people are treated by those who have some personal objection to homosexual behavior:

First, I take issue when someone wants to restrict my liberties based on their religious beliefs. I don’t know how much this applies elsewhere in the world, but we claim to have freedom of (and therefore from) religion in the U.S. So when someone argues, for instance, that gays and lesbians shouldn’t have the right to marry, based on their personal religious beliefs, I object to that. (As an aside – who’s being asked to bless marriages, anyway? If it’s up to god to bless a marriage, what does it matter if it’s legal or not? Don’t answer that, it’s rhetorical. But there are things which are legally protected freedoms which are largely considered to be immoral and/or unethical. Why? Because we usually consider protecting an individual’s freedoms to be more important than forcing everyone to live by the same moral code. And yet. )

Furthermore, it may not be an integrated part of our legal system the way freedom of religion is (…supposed to be), but the Declaration of Independence cites our “unalienable” rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. It’s my conviction that everyone should be free to pursue happiness in whatever way suits them, provided only that it doesn’t impinge on another person’s right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. (Another aside – interesting explanation of the distinction between freedom and liberty, which I feel is on point: http://www.naciente.com/essay36.htm. A gay couple’s marriage does not in any way restrict or limit a straight couple’s ability to marry, whereas a smoker’s smoking has the potential to deprive those around them of good health and even life.)

The second thing I take issue with, and this is arguably the more important point because the first one would not be at issue if not for this, is the idea that there’s something inherently wrong with LGBT-identified people. This is homophobia. It’s the belief that just having homosexual (or transgender) feelings, regardless of what you choose to do about those feelings, makes a person sick or immoral or dangerous (and in a fundamentally different way from people who lie or steal or cheat on their spouses – which, ironically, seems like a tacit acknowledgment of that fact that an LGBT-identified person can’t change that aspect of themselves). It’s everything from the premise that there must be some horrible trauma in an LGBT-identified person’s past to cause them to “feel that way” to the attitude that gay people are mystically responsible for the world’s ills. It’s the belief that LGBT-identified people (or even those who appear to be) are less worthy of love, less worthy of respect, less worthy of LIFE.

I won’t go into the whole laundry list of (largely unsubstantiated) ways in which those of us who are LGBT-identified are characterized as defective by straight/cisgender (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender) or deeply closeted people. Most of you are probably familiar with them. It doesn’t matter which particular belief or attitude it is, they all have the same effect: to dehumanize. They’re all things that allow “good” people to justify depriving LGBT-identified people of freedoms, of housing, of jobs, of families, etc, or else justify emotional and physical violence against them, in the name of "curing", controlling, or punishing them.

The “love the sinner, hate the sin” rhetoric falls into this category. From my perspective, the difference between that and “god hates fags” is more in degree than nature. The message in both cases is “I am more worthy of god’s love than you,” (with a side of “I know what god thinks/I am allowed to speak for god”) just that in the former case it’s followed by “because I’m so righteous, I’m going to be nice to you and hope you change,” whereas in the latter it’s more, “because you’re so horrible, I can do bad things to you and god doesn’t care.” Would I rather deal with the first than with the second? Absolutely. Would I be close friends with someone who approached me with “love the sinner, hate the sin” attitude? Probably not. Because I would feel like they thought they were better than me, and that THEY had an agenda to try to change me.

As for the science of being LGBTQetc, it’s a false dichotomy to insist that it must be genetic or it must be a choice (speaking of logical fallacies). The human brain is impossibly complex. We don’t understand everything that plays a role. I doubt we even know everything that plays a role. (If you’re really interested, there’s a Wikipedia article that covers many possible explanations of transgender identities: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etiology_of_transsexualism.) Also , if one believes that humans are spiritual beings occupying a temporary physical existence, then to focus solely on the physical roots of sexual orientation and gender identity is to deny that the spiritual self, the soul if you will, could play a role. Does it actually? I don’t think we can know. In any case, any study or theory which doesn’t account for the lived realities of LGBT-identified people is about as meaningful as saying you have the best cake recipe in the world without ever actually baking the cake.

Thus ends my treatise on negative attitudes towards LGBT-identified people. I have gone on long enough, and if I start in about how it all boils down to the Rules of Gender, I might end up going on for another two pages (single spaced)…

As for my own experience, I feel fortunate to be able to say that I know god loves me. Note that I’m not calling myself Christian, or anything else. I believe in god, not religion. And I am using a lowercase g on purpose. It’s not to deny god’s greatness; it’s just a small way of reclaiming god from those who claim to speak for “Him” and against me.

I have experienced god in my life intensely this year, on multiple occasions, and realized that not only is god looking out for me (which I already knew), but god is listening to me – I don’t have to wait for my mom or anyone else to speak to god on my behalf. I don’t have words for how simultaneously humbling and empowering that knowledge is. I also believe that my gender and sexual identities AND the challenges associated with them are gifts from god, and that the things I learn in overcoming adversity are tools that I can use do good work in the world.

I would say there is no "gay agenda", but I realized that's not true, at least for me. My Gay Agenda is to end the violence, the discrimination, and all the other consequences of LGBT-identified people being seen as less than. It's cost too many lives already.

[Badstench]

After reading Psychoadepts 'essay', I feel bound to comment... not about the subject, but about the honesty and intelligence and bravery people in this forum have shown by their responses.

Psychoadept, and everyone else, your post was well presented and coherent.

The contributors to this forum continue to amaze and delight me with their thoughts and philosophies. I may not always agree, but I do appreciate.

I'm not so brave, because I know that my personal belief in this subject is not in line with the modern 21st century way of social enlightenment and tolerance.

I'm homophobic.

And not for reasons of faith or society or biology... it's just me!

[Young Ned]

Bravo, Psychoadept. That took a lot of courage.

I saw something just yesterday that I thought was very appropriate for this topic. It's good for LGBT teenagers to know that some religious authorities are totally okay with homosexuality, and this video features the Bishop of New Hampshire (Episcopalian church):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPZ5eUrNF24

[Doolipalally]

I'd like to second that 'Bravo'! That 'essay' helped me clarify a lot of my half-formed arguments and opinions. Eloquent and rational - thank you!

And yes, this forum is amazing!

[Scarbrow]

I'd like to second that 'Bravo'! That 'essay' helped me clarify a lot of my half-formed arguments and opinions. Eloquent and rational - thank you!

And yes, this forum is amazing!

And I third it. Excellent work, I'm very glad I insisted upon hearing it. Duly repped.

I'm not so brave, because I know that my personal belief in this subject is not in line with the modern 21st century way of social enlightenment and tolerance.

I'm homophobic.

And not for reasons of faith or society or biology... it's just me!

In the same spirit of "knowing and not judging" we're so successfully displaying here, I would like to ask you what means to be an homophobic to you. Are you afraid of homosexuals? Knowing your civil and even chivalrous (http://www.srythforum.com/showthread.php?p=40514#post40514) behavior, I don't believe you engage in any activities to positively worsen any lifes around you, no matter who they may be. So I'm curious about how that self-recognized homophobia affects your life and your relationships with people.

[psychoadept]

Thank you all!

Bishop Robinson is one of my heroes. I will watch that video in full as soon as I can.

I had the exact same questions for Badstench. While it might fit the "dictionary" definition, I don't really think of "being uncomfortable with gay people" as homophobia, as long as one owns it and doesn't expect other people to live differently because of it.

[Badstench]

Okay... I wanted to remain silent on this subject, but my use of the word 'homophobic' has sparked a couple of queries.

Dictionary.com includes one definition of 'homophobic' as "an intense hatred or fear of homosexuality".

Hmmm... that's not me. So I guess I should retract my earlier statement.

However, I do have a personal aversion to homosexuality and, specifically, to the physical aspect of it. If you take away the sex part of homosexual, then you're just left with two people who are like-minded and get on. This is called 'friendship'.

Scarbrow asked:
I'm curious about how that self-recognized homophobia affects your life and your relationships with people
It doesn't. I can work with them and socialise with them, but I don't consciously think of their sexual proclivity while doing so. They are still people, and I treat all people with consideration and respect regardless of race, creed, colour, politics or religion... or sexual preference. To coin a well-worn joke, "I hate everyone equally."

But, I don't have any homosexual friends. I have acquaintances, and that's as far as it will ever go. Those people know my stance and respect it, and that's a good thing.

Now... here's a thing: I don't know have any close friends or relatives who have 'come out'. I have never been challenged to discover my true feelings because I've never been challenged in such a way.

When I say that my aversion to homosexuality is 'just me'... it means that I dislike, disapprove and disagree with the lifestyle. That's my personal thinking.

I hope that answers your queries.

[texlaw1992]

I thought someone would mention this, but since no one has, I'll note that the US Senate actually voted today to repeal "Don't Ask Don't Tell."

There will be no immediate implementation (has to be signed by the President, then the military has to certify it won't affect readiness, then another 60 day waiting period, etc). Still, it means we're about to get a number of desperately-needed Arabic translators back in the fold. Also, we might get more colorful camouflage (lol).

Kudos to those politicians who (much to my surprise) were actually brave enough to do the right thing.

[Elrond]

Still, it means we're about to get a number of desperately-needed Arabic translators back in the fold. Also, we might get more colorful camouflage (lol).

Wow, now we know what the army needs all those translators for ;) . Not enough home-grown talent to satisfy!

[Scarbrow]

The news had reached my ears, but every political analyst I read said they wouldn't vote for it. I'm glad to hear it. Every stupid law abolished improves the world a little.

[Young Ned]

I thought someone would mention this, but since no one has, I'll note that the US Senate actually voted today to repeal "Don't Ask Don't Tell."

There will be no immediate implementation (has to be signed by the President, then the military has to certify it won't affect readiness, then another 60 day waiting period, etc). Still, it means we're about to get a number of desperately-needed Arabic translators back in the fold. Also, we might get more colorful camouflage (lol).

Kudos to those politicians who (much to my surprise) were actually brave enough to do the right thing.
Much to my surprise as well! Glad they finally did it, though. I found out late last night, and haven't been back here until now.

I don't know what you mean about the Arabic translators, though; none of the news articles I saw mentioned anything about that.

Every stupid law abolished improves the world a little.

Well said! As long as it's not being replaced with an even stupider law, anyway... :)

[texlaw1992]

The military has expelled a number of desperately-needed Arabic and Urdu-speakng translators under DADT. Presumably now they'll have a chance to return to their jobs.

[Young Ned]

The military has expelled a number of desperately-needed Arabic and Urdu-speakng translators under DADT.
Aha, thanks.

Presumably now they'll have a chance to return to their jobs.
Assuming they want to after being treated that way...

[psychoadept]

Thanks for pointing it out, texlaw! I also hadn't been back here since I heard. Am VERY happy. I have a friend who is the partner of a servicemember, and will finally be able to be public about her relationship. I have another friend who badly wanted to join the Navy, but couldn't do it because she refused to be in the closet.

[psychoadept]

Since I'm still getting responses to this (thanks! you know who you are!), I thought you all might be interested to know that just a few weeks after my original post I started attending an Episcopal church in my area. It was the result of a chain of events that included doing a presentation with my mom at HER church, which I generally sum up (tongue firmly in cheek) as "God smacked me upside the head and said 'Go to church!'" The presentation is available on Youtube, and I'll happily send anyone who wants to see it a link by PM.

Also, I never noticed before that the background of my icon could be interpreted as "the flames of hell", lol. Maybe I'll change it. ;)

[demojan777]

Also, I never noticed before that the background of my icon could be interpreted as "the flames of hell", lol. Maybe I'll change it. ;)

I thought that it was more of a sort of Firestarter thing, since that kind of fits your name :)