Censoring and deletion - forum administration - *WARNING* - heated discussion

[Tetracapillactomist]

I support the game. Maybe more than it's known, which is fine by me. I support the forum in whatever inadequate way. Tried to support the Wiki in the past (the same inadequate way).

Today I noticed a post of mine was deleted, without being told about it, without even an unfriendly warning.

It was a simple and silly thank you note. Not unprecedented.

I'm not sure if it's the only one that's been deleted. I can't be sure. I feel I can't be sure of anything like that any more.

Telling me it is the only one won't change that any more, since this one did happen without me hearing a word.

And it was done on the sly, without letting me know. Which, to me at least, means it may have happened already, and still could in the future. Without me having a clue.

So I have trust issues. OK. And issues with authority. Fair enough.

I attach less importance to my presence here then some might think, or that it would appear in some of my posts.

And I know that my posts aren't 'all that,' and I know for a fact that some think less of them as less than average, and that my ratio of being in the right is rather low compared to many forum members. (Right, agent 2x0? On the sly, that one too...)

But I put some effort and thought behind most of my posts, even the shortest ones, sometimes, regardless of their actual worth.

So traces of me can be erased without me knowing, or anyone else.

No big deal, right?

It is to me.

And not because I think my posts are important - mostly I'm convinced they are not, not in the least, and if I thought otherwise, I'd reach up and start checking the girth of my head in an instinctive worry that it might be growing like one of those contest pumpkins.

It has absolutely nothing to do with that.

It's about trust. And breach. Again.

And the power to do it: trust, breach, and censoring.

And the choice not to warn the poster about it.

I certainly don't think my posts are all that important. Even when others say something to the opposite, I know they mean it (some more than others), but still, I also know they're being kind, friendly, loving people, and feel grateful that they feel that way towards me. That is all. But that's more important to me than the rest. It doesn't swell my head, because I think their words and feelings have more to do with their quality as loving human beings, rather than the actual worth of my posts and contributions.

So it doesn't matter, then, right? Wrong. It matters to me, and I can't help feeling the way I do. (I can try and pretend, but that would involve pretending, so... I rather not, if it can be avoided.)

My posts may not be important, and many may consider them worse then 'unimportant.'

But they're part of me, in a sense, and part and parcel of any other contribution and any other form of support I can, and did, and do offer the the game and the forum.

I put some effort into them, and sometimes more of me than might be apparent. So they matter to me.

If they are erased, traces of me are being erased, without being told.

Well, still no big deal - it's my problem.

Only, under those circumstances, with someone being able to wipe them arbitrarily, using their administrative power, without me ever knowing (unless by finding out accidentally), what's the point?

Posting only to kill time? Wasting time writing in the sand?

Any passing wind being able to wipe away traces of any effort having been made?

Well, maybe there's still a point. For some types of uninvolved posts.

It certainly dampens the spirit though.

Even more so than the treatment of the PM limit increase requests and the back-and-forth dance moves of the staff increase attempt (offered out of the blue, unexpectedly, then removed, even as I proposed others, more deserving and capable and willing be trusted with those tasks instead of me).

Well, once more, I was ready to bow out, and am aware of - who knows? - possibly being banned on account of this post. I just don't care. Or care, but just can't be quiet, careful, cautious, submissive, peaceful and meek, I guess. Couldn't ever be in the face of greater threats that some admin's threat - and power to back that threat up - to ban me from a forum.

Quiet? We can have that when we're dead.

(Dead, quiet, proper, and polite.)

And by all means, feel free to delete this as well, Scarbrow.

Or ban me.

(And that there is not the most important, but it is one of the reasons I'm not too inclined to bow out gracefully and voluntarily...)

Making a mountain out of a mole hill? All right.

But if one thank you note, one post can be deleted without notice simply because it's deemed "irrelevant," so can others, one and all, technically.

Did my deleted post do harm? Did it insult, hurt, rendered sad or angry?
Did it provoke, cause duress, antagonise, or sow discord?

I seriously doubt it. Ah, well, it was "irrelevant." We can't have that.
Hello! Have we met?...

(Without all the 'irrelevant' posts this would be just another dry, boring forum, droning on indefinitely, and taking itself all too seriously about 'relevant' stuff. Still, it would probably attract more people boasting about 'the freaky stuff they do, that's banned in seven states,' etc. I suppose...)

And if one of my posts can be deemed "irrelevant," so can they all be, arbitrarily, and to a degree.

Because I am irrelevant in the end. Definitely irreverent - if that's relevant.

[shadowblack]

*sigh* That was WAY too long, so I skipped most of it.

From what I read it seems like one of your posts was deleted and you weren't told about it, right? Would it be that hard to:
1) Ask who and why deleted that post?
and 2) Tell us where the post was, so we can check whether it was deleted, moved, or merged with another post of yours?

In all forums I have seen (this one included) a short, to-the-point, post is a lot more likely to get a response than a huge wall of text. Just sayin'.

[Doolipalally]

Tetra, let's find out whether it was an oversight, a mistake or deliberate before we get too heavy on this one. Stuff happens. Shadowblack has a point: better to ask what happened first, before getting too upset.

[NathanH]

Deleting posts without telling you about it does seem like bad form on a small forum like this.

[Doolipalally]

Sure, but let's judge on facts, not speculation.

[Tetracapillactomist]

*sigh* That was WAY too long, so I skipped most of it.

From what I read it seems like one of your posts was deleted and you weren't told about it, right? Would it be that hard to:
1) Ask who and why deleted that post?
and 2) Tell us where the post was, so we can check whether it was deleted, moved, or merged with another post of yours?

In all forums I have seen (this one included) a short, to-the-point, post is a lot more likely to get a response than a huge wall of text. Just sayin'.

Remind me never to gift you with a book longer than ten pages.

And why shouldn't you skip most of a forum member's post about his concerns regarding a forum administrator's possible breach, or abuse of powers, or arbitrary action? You're only an admin, after all, and this couldn't possibly matter, or concern you in the least.

It wouldn't be hard to ask who deleted the post, or why. Only pointless, since I know: Scarbrow. Because it was deemed by him "irrelevant."

Well, you might have gleaned that much from my post, but clearly there was no point in you reading it.

Sorry to have inconvenienced you once more - although there doesn't seem to be much point to replying to a post you haven't read, now is there? Just sayin'...

I'm not interested in the actual post, its fate, or its restoration. It was a short, silly thank you note. (And with that, I am once more repeating myself for your sake, simply because this is also mentioned in my original post, but again, you simply couldn't be bothered to read it. And again: why should you? It's not as if you were in charge of anything forum-related...)

What I am interested in, is the way administrators seem to handle things, and the manner in which they respond to requests, situations, or even harmless, good-natured thank you notes, silly as they may be.

The post was in the pumpkin growing contest announcement's thread, and you needn't check and tell me, I already did. Although not unprecedented, this one was arbitrarily deleted. I'm certain it had nothing to do with the fact that the post was mine, because Scarbrow is clearly and positively in love with me, adores my contributions, and to think otherwise would simply prove me a paranoid nutter with a persecution complex.

Tetra, let's find out whether it was an oversight, a mistake or deliberate before we get too heavy on this one. Stuff happens. Shadowblack has a point: better to ask what happened first, before getting too upset.

Deliberate. Reason: 'irrelevant.' It was also rightful, justified, deserved, and completely within the administrator's power, I'm certain.

Stuff always happens.

Well, Shadowblack has several points, true. Not what I'd accept as good points, but they are points, they are pointy, and they seem pointed at me. (Optical illusion or paranoid delusion? Oh, both, I'm sure...) I've learnt to expect that from Shadowblack since the PM increase debacle...

I would ask what happened, but since I already know, it seems more appropriate to point out that it did, and I accidentally found out.

Deleting posts without telling you about it does seem like bad form on a small forum like this.

I do not see eye to eye with you in your roundabout way of attempting to get your point across, and get what you wanted, previously (and I called it manipulative, which it was), but I wouldn't want your posts deleted on the sly.

So I agree, obviously, but more importantly, I thank you.

Sure, but let's judge on facts, not speculation.

I hope my handle hasn't become synonymous with speculation. Simply because I don't treat communication as a one-dimensional accounting spreadsheet. There is no speculation regarding the deletion, the person responsible for it, and the reason provided, I assure you.

Well, in any case, the post, I reiterate, was a silly thank you note, short and inconsequential.

I am not arguing in my post's favour, that aspect is immaterial, it does not interest me.

It's Scarbrow's modus operandi that interests me.

And the fact that this happened.

To an established, active member of the forum, who may or may not be liked or disliked by other members, and in particular by one or two of the forum administrators. To a fairly devoted and involved, as well as generous supporter of the game. So what does that signal to members who may be less active, less established, or can't afford to be generous, should an administrator grow... let's say weary of them - or enamoured, I don't care which one is claimed, or even perfectly unbiased and saintly impartiality. (I don't see any exact scientific approach that would determine unequivocally either impartiality, or all possible motivations behind any individual's actions, especially when these are often hidden even to the person in question, in their subconscious mind.)

So, what interests me, is that it has happened.

And that it was done quietly, on the sly.

Which means, technically, it can happen again. At any time.

Or it may have already been done before, but unlike in this case, I haven't stumbled on any evidence, I am unaware of it still.

Speculation? Perhaps. Sometimes you need to go beyond what is printed on the spreadsheet, speculate maybe - or rather theorise, analyse, hypothesise. In this case I'd say: extrapolate. Especially when dealing with the principles involved, rather than the specific and inconsequential post in question.

Well, and I'm tired again, and at this point weary, rather than wary...

So I hope the above makes some sense still. Even if it lacks even the pretence of succinctness, I hope it still has a modicum of logic left in it.

(And Shadowblack: no, I'm not asking or expecting that you read this, so no need to tell me "it was WAY too long," TLDR... You can spare yourself a boring read - and me, another one of your comments like the one before, and those in the PM increase thread, thank you.)

But speaking of facts, not speculation:

- who pays the bills for this forum?
- who has the final say?
- can Scarbrow, his decision, or his behaviour ever be questioned and in doubt, or would that be considered fallacy or worse?
- what happens if members should withdraw their support because of how they feel they've been treated by forum administrators?

Just askin'.

Not sayin'.

[spencer]

Tetra,

Can I ask how you found out that it was deliberate, which post it was and why it was deleted, please?

[Tetracapillactomist]

Details... I heard the devil is in the details. I heard the opposite too. (People just can't seem to make up their minds about details, it seems - but we sure tend to get bogged down in them...)

I'm not interested in that particular post of mine. Not interested in having it restored either. It. Does. Not. Matter. The principle does. An inoffensive post has been deleted quietly, on the sly.

Scarbrow can fill you in on the details if he cares to do so, and explain it away as well. I very much expect that. It will happen. Unless it doesn't. Because I said it would. (The Heisenberg principle again... twisted about a bit. And this thread is beginning to look like a Möbius strip...) Or for any other reason. Who knows what's in a man's mind, right? I don't. Some of the things even 'the man' doesn't know about his own mind. I can see something happening, try to evaluate attitudes and reactions as best I can. Then guess at the possibilities.

The post itself does not matter. Described above what it was, mentioned the reason given at the bottom of the empty space where the post has been, still bearing my name.

It was deleted without a warning of any sort, quietly. I think that might matter. Does it not? And the rest of what I said? Any of it?...

If none of what I had said matters, I'll take my cue from that.

Am I just wasting everyone's time? And mine as well?

That's fine, I'll understand. It's fine, no big deal: someone sees a post, they don't think much of it, they say nothing, they consider it insignificant, or 'irrelevant,' to be precise, and they delete it. They have the power to do that, so that makes it all right. Right? Right.

(Sleepy now.)

[Young Ned]

Well, Scarbrow often doesn't log in for days at a time, so it may be a while before we see a response from him on this. I agree that simply deleting the post without any sort of warning or notification is unusual and would be a problem if it were done a lot, but I've never seen this happen before, so I don't think it's something he makes a habit of doing. I suspect he was probably tired and perhaps a little grouchy at the time. (I know I certainly get cranky when I'm too tired.)

[Lightwielder]

Well, Tetra. I did read through your posts. Completely. So, not a waste of time if there is even one person to read it.

May I make an observation? Would I be right by stating in plainer words(for those that didn't read your posts) that you are not concerned about the presence or contribution of the aforementioned post, but the principle behind its removal from existence?

Or am I incorrect?

[Tetracapillactomist]

That's true, and a big part of my message, Light. And even at that - meaning the principle - I initially shrugged, sighed, figured Scarbrow's just annoyed with me, and it's an insignificant, if harmlessly grateful post... so it doesn't matter.

I may have thought his action possibly petty and short-sighted, but I thought 'choose your battles.'

Oddly, after 'I slept on it,' I felt more strongly about it, not less...

So I wrote the first post, and created the thread... before doing something like following Elrond's example.

But willing to run the risk of being banned in the same manner in which the post was deleted!

[Tetracapillactomist]

(Scarbrow was here now, he visited, looked round, and posted as well. Good work on the Wiki, Scarbrow, keep it up...)

Well, I changed my mind. Since it was deleted surreptitiously, on the sly, I want back.

Not because the post itself was worth anything in itself, but because its header had the words:

Thank you

And also to a simple thing:

do not presume to deem my thank you to the GM 'irrelevant.'

No one's thank you note to the GM should be deemed by any single person - no matter how self-important or narcissistic (or spiteful) - irrelevant.
(Except, obviously, the author of the note, and maybe the GM.)
Not on this forum, of all places...

Not even mine...

Everyone has the choice to stand by their feelings, sentiments, gratitude, words, or anything else.

If they chose not to do so, that's their loss, but also the loss of the persons whom those feelings of gratitude concern, right?

I will stand by my feelings (and by those who aren't able, for any reason, to stand by theirs, but don't refuse support; those unwilling to stand by theirs can't be helped...)

My 'Thank you' note is most certainly NOT irrelevant.

It may be to YOU, Scarbrow, but honestly: I don't give a hoot. ("Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.")

It was a long process, I think, and mutual, I guess, but I've learnt to lose respect.

And with that last display of your arbitrary disrespect of me - deleting my thank you note to the GM without saying a word, and declaring it irrelevant too - I lost more of that respect for you than ever before, Scarbrow.

(And yes, since then, Scarbrow had visited and posted, but apparently missed this new thread entirely - perhaps far too busy to look after the forum, or just none too interested.)

Well then, 'niceties' be damned, I changed my mind in view of being disrespected first, then ignored (whether on account of being busy or disinterested, or simply in an attempt to ignore this thing till it dies!), I'm putting my neck on the forum's chopping block (actually, I more or less consider my neck to have been there ever since the PM increase debacle), , my fist showing a fig, and ask for my thank you note be restored.

By Scarbrow himself. After all, he was the one who deleted it...

Regardless of Mr Scarbrow's views on my, or my words' relevance. Or anyone else's, in fact: I think I'm entitled to express my thank you in words, even crack a joke, even in the GM's thread, especially after having expressed it in other ways.

I suspect I have earned that right in more ways than one.

Even in this rarified air...

You think my thank you to the GM 'irrelevant,' Scarbrow? I suggest you ask the GM himself how irrelevant he considers my gratitude before you take it on yourself to judge me, or pick me as the object of your particular kind of impartiality, so obviously subject to your whim (I'm not the only one who thinks so, though you have your fans and friends, clearly more vocal than mine, but then it's easier to support 'the powers that be,' so I'm not really surprised). And I'm a loose cannon, a nutjob, barking mad, a powder keg, an erratic loony toon bashing my head into a wall, and sowing discord, creating discomfort, apparently... My company seems to be considered 'risky,' hazardous to polite society and to one's health.

Well, I haven't an overabundance of talent and patience for pretence and 'diplomacy.' Or much taste for it either...

And why have I not sent this to Scarbrow as a private message? Two reasons:

a) I don't consider this a private matter - very much the opposite, in fact

b) I have done so in the past, at the time of the PM hubbub, and he hasn't replied, so I assume he has no more concern or time for me in private, than he has on the open forum (failing to notice - or choosing not to acknowledge - this thread, for example... "just sayin' ").

Well, good day, sir, etc. - and have a wonderful day, all you polite folk. :)

(Yes, that's a smiley. I smile at odd and inopportune times. I can smile bitterly, and sadly, and angrily... I know: it's all so unnecessarily complicated... Sorry.
Or not - why should I be sorry for what I am, batty or not. You see what you choose to see, ultimately. And turn a blind eye to things you don't wish to see. Well, that's a human trait, so be my guest.)

Sorry for the rant, &c.

[edit] And sorry about the 'walls,' of course! (The ones I bash my head against, and these, made of text... :()

[Doolipalally]

Tetra, sorry if I've missed this information above, but which thread did you post a thank you to the GM in?

[Scarbrow]

Oh for God's sake, Tetra, SHUT THE HELL UP!

I've been here in the forum, I've posted. It's just that I don't usually read the whole forum, just skim over some selected threads and have a look at the "New Posts". I haven't read this thread until right now. And no, I haven't read your full wall(s) of text. I know about the deletion, and maybe I'll talk about it, but not now, I'm just too incensed.

The rest of the people here know me. It's hard to make me lose my nerves. Well, congratulations, you've made it. I'm angry now. Power-hungry angry admin, no less. With power to ban, delete, edit and remove any trace of your existence in this forum, private messages and user profile included. With no limitations whatsoever. And only Shadowblack, Havoc (should he return) and the GM himself have the power to forcefully strip me of those privileges. Afraid now? Am I villainous enough now?

Just think for a moment, Tetra. You're still here. I don't precisely enjoy many of your contributions. Nor I'm particularly happy about you and the amount of drama you're able to generate, this thread being a prime example. But I haven't treated you differently that I have treated any other member. I've deleted, pruned, merged and moved around posts from many members, all in the best interest of an ordered and well-cared-for forum. Yet I had still to see such an attack from anybody. I don't want a flame war here, so I'm going to stop now. I'll come back in a few hours, and THEN I'm going to rant.

You're free not to trust me, but I won't be making any retaliations. If you want your post back, please ask anybody else from the staff.

[Tetracapillactomist]

Oh for God's sake, Tetra, SHUT THE HELL UP!

Well, there it is - except I don't need to when you have the power to do it for me, Scarbrow.

It's hard to make me lose my nerves. Well, congratulations, you've made it. I'm angry now.

That's dandy, so am I. Why are you angry? For this thread? Why?

Power-hungry angry admin, no less. With power to ban, delete, edit and remove any trace of your existence in this forum, private messages and user profile included. With no limitations whatsoever.

Well, who the bloody hell is stopping you?! G'ahead!

And only Shadowblack, Havoc (should he return) and the GM himself have the power to forcefully strip me of those privileges. Afraid now? Am I villainous enough now?

No. Never been of you. But you did manage to depress the hell out of me, gradually, and make me angry in turn.

Villainous? No. I said narcissistic, quoting you quoting someone else. Your boasting about your administrative powers, your deletion of my thank you, and your ordering of me to 'SHUT THE HELL UP!" are no less pathetic than my drama.

[edit]You're a 'Wiki Maven.' You're complaining that you have no time for the Wiki? Maybe you should focus on that, and graciously hand over the reins of forum administration to someone who is always here to look after it! Like Oldschool. No? Why not?!

[Scarbrow]

I´ve now read your whole posts, TC

Anybody else wants to make this into a motion of confidence?

I don´t want to trouble anybody who is choosing to ignore this thread, so I think we should make what we can to confine drama to this and only this thread.

If just one more forum user supports TC's viewpoints on the matter (it does not need to be in full, just having doubts about me being an adequate moderator/administrator will be enough) I'll put up a poll to let you vote on the matter.If I don´t have the confidence of the users, I'll step down and Oldschool will be promoted to Administrator

[NathanH]

My weakly-held opinions on this subject can be expressed quickly:

It is reasonable for a forum admin to sometimes delete posts that they deem irrelevant and untidy.

It is reasonable on a small forum for the admin to inform a poster of their deleted messages (if there are too many such instances to be feasible, then there may be too many deletions being made). I don't think a reason needs to be given; if there is no reason then "off topic/clutter" is implicit and acceptable.

I have no further contribution to make.

[scout1idf]

I wasn't going to get into this one, but my personal opinion is that NO ONE should post in An Adventurer's Journal or Sryth Facebook Updates except the GM. They are his threads, in my opinion.

That being said, I don't understand why a "Thank You" to the GM was deleted and marked "irrelevant" while several other post's remain in both An Adventurer's Journal and Sryth Facebook Updates.

I have noticed other post's have been deleted either by the author or by request of the author, I assume the latter being after the thread was locked.

My weakly-held opinions on this subject can be expressed quickly:

It is reasonable for a forum admin to sometimes delete posts that they deem irrelevant and untidy.

It is reasonable on a small forum for the admin to inform a poster of their deleted messages (if there are too many such instances to be feasible, then there may be too many deletions being made). I don't think a reason needs to be given; if there is no reason then "off topic/clutter" is implicit and acceptable.

I have no further contribution to make.

I agree with NathanH that forum admin's need to sometimes "clean house".

I also agree that the author of the post should be notified of the deletion, preferably before it is deleted to give the author time to plead his case.

Also I don't see a need to put a reason other than "forum cleaning" or "removed by request".

I see no need to remove Scarbrow as an admin. I would just ask that my suggestions pertaining to the removal of posts be considered in the future.

I would also like to throw out the suggestion for the creation of a thread titled, "Thank You GM". All future "Thank You's" could be posted there with a link to or quote of what the thank you pertains to.

It could be stuck so it could be easily found.


Just my 2 cents on the subject and an attempt to defuse a situation I personally don't like to see.

Like it or not, we are a "family" and I know families sometimes fight, but I still don't like to see it.....

[Oldschool]

A big ditto to your last "section" Scout and a bit of a shamefaced kudos regarding defusing the situation as well as some humble pie in the form of the following.

And I've wrangled with posting this or not and posted an earlier reply only to delete it then after some more reflection thinking I should've left it up. So for better or worse here goes.

Regarding the incident itself and the who, what, when, where and why. That's not the reason for this post, actually it's a bit self-serving so bear with me. And I'm not going to point fingers at anyone, if I need to do that I'll take a gander in the mirror, because I probably could've defused this before it got to this point, but chose to sit back and take the easy road hoping the situation would play out at least neutrally. I sure as hell could've and should've tried and didn't. And for that I apologize.

I opted to stay out of this so as to not take sides or appear to take sides on an issue involving friends plural as it would've been uncomfortable for me. Instead I let it get to the point of being uncomfortable for everyone. Plain and simple, that's the pinnacle of hypocrisy for a mod.

As for the "self-serving" part I feel bad about my part in this and feel the need to mitigate my shame hence part of the reason for this post.

And before anyone tells me not to be too hard on myself, don't worry as I'm not about to enter the full throes of martyrdom, so save your time and "ink" and Vote for Sryth instead.

Bottom line, I'm a mod and I should've done something. It could've been in private. Instead I didn't do squat till it got to this point and I am genuinely bothered by that fact and my involvement via my non-involvement if that makes any sense.

And I'm not speaking for the other staff or to them because to be honest I was staying relatively current on the thread and they may not have been and to say "well neither did....." would only add another log to the fire of hypocrisy.

[Young Ned]

Apologies in advance for the length of this. I hope that it at least seems clear and coherent despite its length (more of which comes from quoting earlier posts of this thread than from my own wordiness, so hopefully that will help.)

It is reasonable for a forum admin to sometimes delete posts that they deem irrelevant and untidy.

It is reasonable on a small forum for the admin to inform a poster of their deleted messages (if there are too many such instances to be feasible, then there may be too many deletions being made). I don't think a reason needs to be given; if there is no reason then "off topic/clutter" is implicit and acceptable.
I agree with NathanH's points, especially the bolded one. While some deletions are necessary and good, I don't think it's necessary to continually "prune" the forum like a bonsai tree until it reaches a state of perfection; people do ramble and get off topic sometimes, but we usually correct it quickly and it helps keep the forum fun.

I wasn't going to get into this one, but my personal opinion is that NO ONE should post in An Adventurer's Journal or Sryth Facebook Updates except the GM. They are his threads, in my opinion.
I always thought nobody but mods or admins could post replies in those forums, because the topics were kept locked and updated automatically. But I see there are other replies there from ordinary users. Are these due to occasional glitches in the system, or is it more of a manual procedure than I thought? If there's any more we can do to make these "read-only" forums, let's do it.

That being said, I don't understand why a "Thank You" to the GM was deleted and marked "irrelevant" while several other post's remain in both An Adventurer's Journal and Sryth Facebook Updates.
Good question.

I agree with NathanH that forum admin's need to sometimes "clean house".

I also agree that the author of the post should be notified of the deletion, preferably before it is deleted to give the author time to plead his case.
That sounds very reasonable to me, except in the case of obvious spam from someone who's not a regular member of the forum.

I would also like to throw out the suggestion for the creation of a thread titled, "Thank You GM". All future "Thank You's" could be posted there with a link to or quote of what the thank you pertains to.

It could be stuck so it could be easily found.
Good idea!

And I'm not going to point fingers at anyone, if I need to do that I'll take a gander in the mirror, because I probably could've defused this before it got to this point, but chose to sit back and take the easy road hoping the situation would play out at least neutrally. I sure as hell could've and should've tried and didn't. And for that I apologize.

I opted to stay out of this so as to not take sides or appear to take sides on an issue involving friends plural as it would've been uncomfortable for me. Instead I let it get to the point of being uncomfortable for everyone. Plain and simple, that's the pinnacle of hypocrisy for a mod.

As for the "self-serving" part I feel bad about my part in this and feel the need to mitigate my shame hence part of the reason for this post.

And before anyone tells me not to be too hard on myself, don't worry as I'm not about to enter the full throes of martyrdom, so save your time and "ink" and Vote for Sryth instead.

Bottom line, I'm a mod and I should've done something. It could've been in private. Instead I didn't do squat till it got to this point and I am genuinely bothered by that fact and my involvement via my non-involvement if that makes any sense.

And I'm not speaking for the other staff or to them because to be honest I was staying relatively current on the thread and they may not have been and to say "well neither did....." would only add another log to the fire of hypocrisy.
Your feelings do you great credit, Oldschool. I don't think you need to blame yourself quite as much as that, because it might not have been as easy to defuse as you think, but I can't disagree with any of the things you feel you should have done instead. It sounds like you've learned something from this experience, and that's good.

Oh for God's sake, Tetra, SHUT THE HELL UP!
I do understand that you were very angry, and I do think Tetra took it way too personally when you logged in briefly and didn't notice this thread, but I'm sorry, that response went too far. One of the primary rules of this forum is "Be civil to each other", and that was just not civil. You may not have cared for Tetra's tone or his "drama", but he never shouted at you and he never used profanity. I would appreciate it if all members of this forum would do the same, especially those in leadership positions who ought to be setting a good example for us.

I consider you a friend, and I certainly won't change my feeling on that based on anything in this thread. I do think, with several others in this thread, that users deserve a notification when their posts are deleted, at least because if they aren't told their post was inappropriate in some way, they'll just keep doing it in future. (Plus, we Americans have a particular bias against things being done "in secret"; notice how much time we spend trying to get our government, financial organizations, big corporations, etc. to provide more openness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_government) and transparency (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transparency_%28behavior%29) and to release information to us (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_Information_Act_%28United_States%29).)

(I consider Tetra a friend, too, and feel that he has raised some valid questions in this thread, just so nobody thinks I am taking sides here.)

I don't think you need to be removed as an admin; it's a difficult job, and I think you've demonstrated more fairness and impartiality than most people could. As long as all the admins and mods are willing to accept constructive feedback about how to make the forum better, I don't have a problem with any of them.

Bottom line: let's all take a deep breath and calm down, and start thinking in terms of how to make the forum a better place for everyone.

[Scarbrow]

A short night of sleep after...

I feel the need to apologize to all members of this forum for my previous outburst. It may be understandable, but it is not justifiable. Either I'm willing to engage in a civil discussion with Tetracapillactomist about the matter (which I'm not, if only because I believe it would be an impossible task) or I should act in the best of my capacity to really shut him up - and that means either ignoring him on the time-honored "don't feed the troll" Internet tradition or with administrative action (deleting posts/banning) in account of his behavior being way below civil.

Now, I expect (and hope) this will be my last public post about this subject (if anybody is interested in further details, you can PM me) so I'm going to explain my position about this. The RSS sub-forums for Facebook and Twitter updates were set up by the GM himself. They have both needed some tweaking from time to time, but the basic setup has remained the same (by the way, the flurry of old updates from the Twitter account that were posted yesterday was me fixing a mistake, the last time I had to tinker with them I left it disabled). Part of that basic set up is that the threads will automatically be closed 1 hour after being posted. The reason for this margin of time is the forum software does not allow a shorter period. In the spirit of leniency of this forum, some answers to those updates were not deleted in the past, even though the clear intention of the GM was that those threads should not be open to posting. When I deleted TC's post, I was honoring that unspoken deal.

About deleting posts in general, you can rest assured it's a matter that nobody in the staff takes lightly. Also, we don't do it often: merging/moving is deemed as preferable. And when we do it, almost always it's a "soft" delete that can be later recovered by any other staff member. However, I disagree that a warning to the user is always in order: that would be the case only when there is doubt on the matter, or when doing it without a note could cause continuity issues on a thread. I agree that the post creator deserves to be able to defend his/her contribution, but I think that doesn't apply to casual posts/light banter. Again, this is only my personal take on the matter.

@TC
I personally think you've gone past what even a greatly lenient interpretation of "civil" allows. However, I'm not going to take action... yet. Should you choose to continue this disruptive behaviour, I'll be then forced to act. This is not an idle threat, but what I understand is my duty as moderator of this forum: to not allow a single member to casually harass and belittle other members, consistently cause drama and disruption, and otherwise spoil what for most is a fun, civil and harmless environment. This is about a game, after all.

[Tetracapillactomist]

I should act in the best of my capacity to really shut him up - and that means either ignoring him on the time-honored "don't feed the troll" Internet tradition or with administrative action (deleting posts/banning) in account of his behavior being way below civil.

I hope you slept well.

Now I'm a troll...

Well, I tried to stand by those I viewed as friends. And thank you all who tried to stand by me... Thank you too, Nathan, who tried to stand with impartiality. To you, I apologise now publicly for some of those words and sentiments expressed in the 'Sryth/dislikes' thread, now separate 'grinding/flaming' thread. (Again: if friends weren't involved in that discussion and attention-grabbing stunt, the "woolly-headed" insult and blaming other players for "ruining" one of your favourite games, Sryth - well, all that aside, if friends weren't involved, my reaction would have been different, not so vehement.)

Scarbrow, you did ignore me as best you could, don't be so hard on yourself... You ignore others too.

Never intentionally, of course, it's just that you simply don't have enough time for this forum (well, had time to delete my thank you), you do say you have little time to devote it and the game, you play several other games, and you did say you had all those 'freaky things to do that are banned in seven states,' or whatever.

That's your business though - I thought the forum might be too much of a burden for a person with so much else to do, a person who has no time to check so many things posted... And that same person possessing the "ultimate power" seems a touch too much...

A person who has that much power - and willingness to use it - shouldn't be one who can only afford a furtive glance once in a while, if there are others more willing and able to look after it.

And you tried to shut me up, with joking threats and otherwise.
Only... I lived a different life than you, apparently. Clearly.

To me a real joke carries no threat, and no threat is a 'joke.'

Shut me up... I just sigh at that right now, believe it or not... By deleting and banning...

And by yelling at me to shut the hell up. (And I just have a shrug for that... It's all right: you showed your true self and true feelings... what lies beneath the put on exterior, as far as I'm concerned.)

I disagree that a warning to the user is always in order [...].

And when you disagree, that's pretty much the end of the story: your voice grows until you yell, if you must, and you can yell louder with "unlimited powers" behind it, so no need to reconsider and give way to the wishes or needs of others - especially if 'others' includes me, I take it, based on your posts expressing your opinion of me, but I'm now sure that is shared by others.

I agree that the post creator deserves to be able to defend his/her contribution, but I think that doesn't apply to casual posts/light banter. Again, this is only my personal take on the matter.

Yes it is... Almost surprised you even allow for that... But your "personal take" rules, as you are "The Decider," so that really is a hollow, immaterial admission.

But "one man's trash is another man's treasure," I heard it said.

So maybe one man's banter is something more to another...

Mine was a thank you, and I am weary of reminding you of that...
But it doesn't matter now, none of it does...

@TC
I personally think you've gone past what even a greatly lenient interpretation of "civil" allows. However, I'm not going to take action... yet. Should you choose to continue this disruptive behaviour, I'll be then forced to act. This is not an idle threat, but what I understand is my duty as moderator of this forum: to not allow a single member to casually harass and belittle other members, consistently cause drama and disruption, and otherwise spoil what for most is a fun, civil and harmless environment. This is about a game, after all.

Again, Scarbrow... a threat is a threat, idle or not, joking or serious.

No threat is really idle, it's a sign of aggression.

And no threat is a friendly act. No threat is innocuous...
***

Belittling: you yelled at me to shut the hell up, and you just called me a troll. And you're the forum admin with "unlimited powers," showing an example...

(...of?...)
***

Was this about a game?
Is it? I thought it was about your "unlimited powers," and you flaunting them, imposing your will based on your "personal takes," and denying or at least giving members a hard time over their requests on the basis of unfounded suspicions, lacking hard data...

Is this about the game?

I support the game. Very much... (And no, not just for myself and my own enjoyment.)

[smv1973]

Wow I am away from the forum for about a month and come back and find this thread. I think there should be a warning added to the title to let others know that this thread has posts that are heated and some that sound like down right hatred.

[Tetracapillactomist]

(sigh) Fair enough, you're right, I'll do it myself... Sorry, SMV.

[Oldschool]

First I've got to get something off my chest.

Regarding this incident itself I don't want to stir anything or anyone back up but a few things that have been said that has bothered me and I've spoken to folks in private but I feel the need to do so in open forum.

I honestly don't feel TC was trolling no more than I think Scarbrow deleted that post other than for the reasons he said.


Also I hope no one takes any wit that I may or may not interject as anything other than me trying to impart some levity into an uncomfortable situation. And bear with me as I'm typing this as I go and consequently it may be disjointed.

Also as I've said before if folks feel the need to PM for whatever reason do so as I don't mind. However, there are some things that I'm aware of of a personal nature and I'm not about to breach any confidences. Not that I think anyone expects me to, wants me to or hopes I will nor has anyone asked. I only say this because I'm sure some of my replies may have seemed a bit brusque or that I've ignored or failed to reply to certain questions. And if you're a regular you know I often get sidetracked and forget the original point(s).

With that in mind before I forget - kudos to SMV for a good suggestion and to TC for editing the title.

I've received PM's from several members worried over this thread. Worried about how it may give the appearance to "non-regulars" that this is standard fare and our community is like many others on the net and that they'll move on. For those that don't know any better let me assure you that this is the exception rather than the norm. Scout's Like it or not, we are a "family" and I know families sometimes fight, but I still don't like to see it..... above sums it up well imo.

As well as worried over this affecting regular members who may leave or visit less often/post less. To the folks that I've spoken with in that regards again I'm confident that our regular members know that aside from the occasional dustup this is a pleasant place and consequently it won't affect their participation, etc....

And again folks PM me if you want this ain't me saying otherwise or complaining.

As for moving the threads, the rules, etc.... and I should have made this clear earlier but some have asked which I've replied to, but I'm guessing others may be wondering or thinking the same thing and haven't asked so......

I moved the posts because they don't belong in the Twitter/FB threads. And there's a significant amount of my own off topic prattle that was moved. I would hope that makes it apparent that those modifications weren't done as retaliation or to infer any wrongdoing, etc... etc... etc...

Same goes for the announcements in those sections including the bit about moving/deleting posts without warning. Folks that's not a threat leveled at anyone. That's what I posted in the Game Updates thread long ago (it's there check the time stamps) and probably in the one before that one which iirc is a copy/paste from the original in this or the old forum. So I consider it "standard fare" and if I was really going to delete stuff I wouldn't have spent the time, effort and energy (not complaining just explaining) to move the other ones.

While it wasn't a herculean effort it taxed my meager skills and resources to merge multiple posts from multiple threads (each announcement lists as a separate thread) from two different sections quoting said threads and posts to afford some semblance of continuity. If I was going to just delete posts I'd have deleted those.

And re: the rules. The rules post was just to hopefully avoid any further confusion which is compounded by the fact those "closed" threads have a window during which they're open because of technical limitations - no one should read anything into it.

Hopefully this is coherent as I'm submitting it now and proofing it later so keep that in mind.

[Young Ned]

Well said, Oldschool!

[Tetracapillactomist]

Well, all right then. I'll be the troll, if the majority agrees. Imma be a big boy now, and feed myself too.

Let no one say I always relied on the kindness of strangers. Or that I've got a case of the vapours...

This stuff below was written a week ago, maybe more, IDK - was meant to be right after Nathan' and Scout's posts on the preceding page.

S... tuff happened, I waited, got delayed and duped repeatedly - in short, a daft dolt's life, nothing new.



All right. I agree with bot Nathan and Scout in general, and with more besides that...

Scarbrow's yelling at me to shut the hell up on top of everything else that began many months ago raised my hackles. No matter how I'm viewed, how I'm interpreted, in spite of anger or clashes, or perceived or real insanity, I can be objective.

Scarbrow's work is appreciated even by me, yes. I may clash, but I can be objective, yes. His work on the Wiki is valuable.

That being said...

This - administration, moderation - shouldn't be about personal offence and dislikes, but about the good of the forum, I thought. In moderation. Same as it is expected of me, I know: moderation.

Scarbrow should step back, I thought, not be the "The Decider," that is all.

That is what I initially thought. There is more.

Scarbrow should stay on as 'Supporting Administrative Staff in Charge of Technology,' with the usual moderating role - a role every forum user can assume at will, in order to pacify, diffuse, defuse, moderate, as well as (obviously) deleting truly offensive, harmful, threatening, or otherwise intolerable-beyond-a-doubt posts (such as I presume that Apocalyptic message was in General Chat (?), which Badstench deleted).

But... And admin's or mod's role is also:

to facilitate, enable, encourage participation - not to unnecessarily, uninformedly, and hastily hinder, refuse, negate, abolish, threaten, and flaunt so-called 'unlimited powers.'

So: this shouldn't be about ego, Scar! For the good of the forum, you should stay on as such administrative support, but without all this 'unlimited, ultimate, unquestioned power' stuffing to cloud your judgement.

(This is not a renegade forum, no need for that. Not usually. Maybe I'm the exception. Sorry about that, I didn't set out to be.)

But no more 'ultimate say.' That stands for PM box capacity too. Most people here, even those that are (nearly) unquestioningly on your side, say 'allow what the users ask for, and what they need.'

Address problems, should they arise, but don't hamstring the forum's functionality and its full enjoyment by its active members on account of speculated-upon issues and unfounded worries not supported by hard facts and concrete data.

(I seriously doubt the forum will be brought to its knees on account of mere megabytes per - what, less than 100 active users? Neither do others here, somewhat familiar with the IT side, nor anyone else I have talked to, including admins of other vBulletin forums. Sorry to be harping on about that, but I took it on the chin and elsewhere back then, because of it, and some spots are still sore. That's me and my drama - "I am what I am.")

And that, in fact, was one of Havoc's declared principles in the old forum, if I'm not too far off the mark, regarding the duties of an admin: not hinder members in their enjoyment of the forum, but rather assist fellow members, look after their requests and needs. No offence intended or meant there, and none given or taken, one can hope.

That 'no ultimate say' also goes for assigning mod status to long-standing, useful, knowledgeable, helpful, vigilant members willing to chip in and help. "Not needed?" Who says? Why?

And most importantly: so what? Does it harm? Is there a real, worrying threat in allowing such members to be able to moderate?

Again, these are cautious members, not reckless fanatics or hooligans, bent on tearing through the forum, bent on causing damage. None of the well-known, long-established members are like that.

I think this forum and its community can survive some slight 'democratic' differences of opinion and can harmonise a few differing voices.

Multiple voices are usually regarded as a good thing in society, in communities, even online ones, and they usually are a good thing. The democratic principle is sound - not a perfect system, but the best we know.

Homogeneous voices, people speaking with one voice, or one authoritarian voice that's even a touch too severe and then claims to speak for all can create a boring environment, which like the 'living dead,' at best.

And can lead to a potentially unpleasant abuse of power at its worst.

I know that if Scarbrow no longer had that 'unlimited power,' I'd feel less stressed, less angry, no longer 'on edge' - or 'scared,' as Scarbrow suggested I should feel, in his question and attempted counter-challenge
(which was yet another threat, a leitmotif, repeated till it sinks into the forum's public consciousness, I suppose).

Call it what you will ('scared' is most definitely the wrong word, but it amounts to stress, distress, whatever - lack of belonging or acceptance, or simply feeling like an undesirable, a persona non grata).

No, I'm not kidding - whether that sounds silly or not (and I suppose it does), I mean what I say, and I try to convey the gist of what I think and feel.

That simple.

It would prove to me that he really wasn't hanging on to his powers tooth and nail for the sake of some status.

And I know others feel the same way, whether they dare, or care speak up, or not - sorry, but that is the situation right now, and it's not as perfectly rosy as said (or if it is, the paint is chipping).

One or more unhappy, stressed, uncomfortable active users can create a ripple effect, same as the smallest, most insignificant-seeming pebble thrown into a mirror-smooth pond.

So, in essence, Scarbrow, you could be like many other admins, really.

An admin without necessarily moderating powers - or rather, in this case, with administrative access looking into the technical side of the vBulletin forum when others are unable.

'Uber-mod' powers relinquished to a fellow, new admin, Oldschool, who seems to me less severe (dare I say less abrasive? - not sure I should, but if I do, it's not to insult you).

He is more jovial, openly friendly, and therefore more easily able to moderate, smooth things over.

Not to mention more omnipresent, more available (regardless of the existence of email contacts and such), more regularly (make that continuously).

Also, more involved, interested, devoted, and willing - and clearly more in charge of his own time than yourself, who has many interests and so many things demanding his attention, from real world preoccupations to World of Warcraft, and everything in-between, including the Sryth Wiki and others.

So, for the good of the forum, and since this is not something that should be taken too personally (even though this comes from me, and the two of us don't get along): you should indeed assist Oldschool and the others with their rare technical challenges, advising on and having access to the technology and functionality of this vBulletin forum.

What I'd suggest now, is to hand over the reins of power-infused uber-moderation to someone less likely to... well, bear their teeth...

Because snarling begets snarling among dogs and wolves (no offence, I include myself in that group).

And if someone is not even aware that their fangs might just be showing slightly, the situation can deteriorate in a hurry, without them being able to do anything about it, since they can't tell what another person might be reacting to.

Especially if they're in a position of power that they seem rather strongly attached to, and revelling in, advertising it so readily, and eagerly too.

Say what you will, I can't really describe Oldschool's fangs, whereas yours... Well, let's just say they look glistening and healthy to me in these posts...

Administrative tasks and problem-solving need not be so 'self-evidently' be married to administrative and moderating unlimited powers, I think.

A separation between the two might be a healthy thing, akin to the separation between the three branches of (a democratic) government, and the separation between church and state, not something to be regarded as cause for a dramatic exit.

It shouldn't be considered with such a panic and apprehension either, as if it was a cataclysmic event.
(It would be a small shift in 'the web of the Pattern,' the ta'maral'ailen - for the fans.)

In any case, not the end of the world as we know it.

Thank you for reading my posts in their entirety, by the way, I know that's a chore.



OK, now this thing above, for sure, was written a week ago? Still dunno, don't matter either.

Was meant to be post #xxx, following Nathan's and Scout's on the previous page before I is become what I is now, a troll.


Stay tuned.

(Next up, the weather.)

[Tetracapillactomist]

Hi, yes, me troll. *grunt* Appetite insatiable. Me so sorry.


Well, all right then. I'll be the troll, if the majority agrees. Imma be a big boy now, and feed myself too.

Let no one say I always relied on the kindness of strangers. Or that I've got a case of the vapours...


While waiting patiently and indifferently now for Scarbrow to make good on his repeated threats of shutting me up for good, banning me, and after being about civility while hypocritically using the most uncivil tone, even including myself, I had the occasional random thoughts...

It's unedited, lacks proofreading - it is what it is, hopefully as stripped of emotion as to be palatable for a polite society.
*****

Shouldn't two forum admins with their 'unlimited powers' make a minimal effort to collect relevant facts and data that concerns and aids them to fulfil their duties - duties that were entrusted to them by a forum community that ideally would have its "growing needs" met by those admins, not hindered.

Shouldn't Scarbrow and Shadowblack, between the two of them, be able to inform themselves prior to refusing blankly or dismissing all requests and needs expressed by active members?

What 'Tetracapillactomist' has done, they could have, should have done themselves.

This site, this forum is about the game, yes. Well, no, actually. This forum is also about the players, and even the the lax players: the community of players.

Scarbrow says "this is about a game, after all." That is a short-sighted view, very restricted and limited. This forum is about the people too.

It's one of the smallest forums in existence, with less than 100 active users, fewer than x,xxx members currently. It is possible to look after it better, without unnecessary negations, hindrance, and aggravation to its loyal members.

This is what Havoc has set out as general principles, from the old forum:

FORUM STAFF NOMINATIONS AND VOTE ON OLD FORUM-DIRECTIVES AND DUTIES

http://shadowwolf47.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=talk&action=display&thread=5136
=================
HAVOC
New Mods/Admins
« Thread Started on Jun 21, 2009, 9:22pm »
A new forum will be soon ready and running.

Please nominate members for the post of mod and admins.

Some simple things to keep in mind.

1) Mods and admins should be long-standing respected, active members of our community, with a history of constructive posting.
2) You can nominate anyone other than yourself.
3) If someone else nominates you, and you feel you won't be able to put in the time needed (not that you actually need much time) you can withdraw your name.

Number of jobs (Tentative. Suggestions and comments welcome)

Admins: 1 (in addition to me and the GM)

Global Mods: 2

Forum moderators:
General Forum: 1
Sryth General: 1
Sryth Help: 1
Suggestions: 1
Fan Section: 1

Responsibilities:
Forum mods: Essentially ensuring that all discussions in your section are civil and ensuring that people stick to the few rules that there are.

Global mods: In addition to the responsibilities of a forum mod, moving offtopic posts to the correct section.

Admin: In addition to responsibilities stated above, managing forum structure to keep up with player needs, and banning persistent offenders.

(Oh, and there's the bit about ME, the TROLL, and a persistent offender, Scarbrow. Yeah...)
These are some of the words from the old forum, at the time of the nominations and voting (very sparse):

ACEBROCK
Scout and Oldschool as global mods.

Just be sure you have at least a moderate amount of time on your hands. I moderate another forum as an anti-spam mod, and that in itself takes up a good chunk of time when the spambots hit. If I had other responsibilities it would be enough to keep me occupied a lot of the time
=================================
SCOUT1IDF
Due to personal reasons, I can't accept the nominations for Moderator.

Thank you for the thought.

Scout1idf.
===============================
RACEY
Smv1973 for the Admin.
Oldschool for the Global.
Badstench for Fan.
Shadowblack for Help.
Tally's Apprentice for Forum/Global.

I also would nominate scarbrow for any of these positions if the Wiki doesn't already take too much of his time.

Another possible nomination for the Help section would be Wetheril. The draw back there is she hasn't been available too much lately.
==============================
TALLY'S APPRENTICE
MrBlack, I'm flattered by the nomination considering the sparsity of my forum contributions recently. Your forum contributions have been very helpful over the past few months, when my time has been greatly reduce.

I take this nomination seriously; and I would not want to be named to any capacity without knowing that I can give the time; and sadly, time has been very busy with work and family commitments. So, I would like to apologize for I cannot take this responsibility and fulfill it as it should be done due to time constraints.

It is pretty certain that Havoc, ShadowBlack, SMV1973, Oldschool, and the other nominees can carry the load admirable.

And on a side note, maybe the forum will cut their grinding time! They've been earning way too much xp lately ;) .
=====================================
SCARBROW
Hi, I've been absent from here a long time.

I want to thank racey for the nomination, but forums are not really my place. The wiki is more than enough work for me, as even if Srythian population is generally gentle and civil, there is much to do, as an admin and as an editor.

I'll try to get familiar with the new interface, and will be visiting from time to time.

Do you plan to "lock" the old forum at some moment, Havoc? So there will be no longer possible to post here?
===========================


(History... No news there, I guess, and nothing surprising, not muchhas changed. Though people do change, it happens occasionally.)

I have emphasised portions of the text which support my argument: time is needed, active status required, willingness also, to help "the growing needs of members."

"This is about a game, after all."

Yes, Scarbrow, it is. Partly. It is also about people.

But your duty as an admin, and yours, Shadowblack, is not to maintain the game, or play the game, or work on the wiki. Your duties as admins of this forum were to look after this forum primarily.
(Is that duty clear and reasonable, or is it contested? )

It required of you then the necessary time to look into things and find ou the facts before saying no to a request, based on lack of information.

If you lack info, obtain it. That is part of your duties as forum admins.

Also, ignoring a request made by a long-standing member for over a week is hardly acceptable practice for admins whose one of few duties was to look after such things.

Thingirl's request set there for over a week without even an attempt at an official answer.
Was it because of her age? Her gender? What was it for? The only answer her request got were unofficial, and they were suggesting she wasn't even being taken seriously: a joke and a suggestion to delete.

That's what first bothered me, and got us started down this road, ending eventually in this.

So a friend weighed in. Then I did as well, my way.

And for all that, Shadowblack's solution was: "short answer: no."

Well, Shadowblack, curtness and tersness are not part of the job description.
What was part of it, was looking after the forum users' growing needs, and updating forum structure accordingly, devoting time to admin duties.

It head to come to a head eventually.
Because the attitude of forum admins hasn't changed since.
Don't bother checking facts and obtaining information, do't waste precious time checking on the forum or reading posts, refuse every request that requires some effort, refuse the adding of more staff, whether out of necessity, or as precaution, or even as recognition for their contributions, efforts, and such.

"Just say no," correct?...

Incorrect.

This shouldn't be about "powers" this and "powers" that, unlimited or otherwise.
This shouldn't be about the status quo.
This should be strictly about serving the community - as Oldschool has tried to do.

As forum admins: looking after the growing needs, and updating forum structure accordingly, not... grinding your (forum) member (down)...



Stay tuned.

(Next up, the weather.)

[Tetracapillactomist]

Hi, yes, me troll. *grunt* Appetite insatiable. Me so sorry.


To sum up: if all you can do is claim "unlimited power" repeatedly, ignore threads and members, fail to look for facts and information, threaten, and have no time to be active on the forum and invest the time needed to update things in order to satisfy growing needs, you can't satisfy the requirements stated as part of a forum admin's job - you simply can't fulfil your duties, or are unwilling.

Scarbrow, you stated that life and World of Warcraft, among other things, some arguably lurid inferences included (in the 'Giggle Bag') keep you busy - good on you.
Fine, but not good enough, not an excuse.
You accepted this duty knowing of the requirements, which included time required to look into, and after things related to the forum, as well as its members' needs.

Now also, you even failed to hold yourself to the same principle that you accused me of failing: civility.

So what's left? Repeated threats, joking, idle, not idle, whatever - and your "unlimited power"
To erase all traces of me here?!

I may have overstepped bounds, yes, but... you're not really ashamed of yourself as an all- powerful admin, so as a lowly, insignificant peon, neither am I.
And that which isn't shameful to 'the almighty,' can't possibly be shameful for 'the troll,'

In conclusion: if I can bring about a beneficial change, of leaving the forum in better, more caring, less heavy hands, in a more relaxed state as far as its own good members are concerned, I'll do it.

People have withdrawn from the forum on account of this heavy-handed unwillingness or mulish resistance to change and look after things and people.

Considering what a tiny, close-knit community like this, that is inexcusable, unacceptable, uncaring.

There is absolutely no reason to adopt that kind of attitude, unless simply to prove that you can, because of your "unlimited powers."

After this is achieved, I'm done, I'm spent, I had enough. To those that enjoyed my irrelevant posts, or anything else: I'm sorry. To those that did not, or are sick of me: rejoice.

One person seems to have had an objection to Scrabrow calling me a troll: Oldschool.

That is not good enough for me: it might mean that most of you agree with that assessment.
And if that many people think I am a troll, then, for all intents and purposes, on this forum, I am.
So that decides it: once this is done, I'm done too.

I didn't take things lightly, shrugging and avoiding to get embroiled into them for the sake of my own comfort and peace of mind, or out of sheer indifference. For that, I bacame a thorn in the eyes of some, and now, a 'troll.'

Well, the indifference is contagious and I think I'm catching it - or catching on.

OS, if you ever become what you more than anyone now here, and so long deserved to be, an admin, and if Shadowblack and Scarbrow don't have time to help with the tech side of things (should you ever require that help, which I absolutely positive you worry too much about - regarding your own abilities to manage things!), I'll do my best to help out whenever needed, if I can. I ask for no title, no status quo, no power, and don't intend to accept - in fact, whereas previously, when offered, I was seriously considering saying yes, now, obviously, because of all this, and everything else, I cannot. But if time and ability allow, I will help out, if and when you request (although you shouldn't stress so much about it, I'm absolutely certain you won't be in as much trouble, and 'in over your head' as you think and say; but be that as it may, I promise to help you if I can, and so will others, I'm sure).

This reign of self-important unwillingness should stop before it drives creative people and free thinkers away with its reluctance to look after their needs. (Not talking about myself. obviously, I'm nether of those, here, on this forum, as far as you're concerned.)

This place has changed. Are you positive it was because of me? Me alone?...

Well, it doesn't matter. I can be stoic when necessary )just as easily as I can be too heated for polite fireside chats about the weather).



So, the above was written a week ago? Who cares. First of triptych was written first, after Nathan and Scout

Next two were originally one, then spilt like cheeks after Scar's private troll party on my arse, apparently garnering a tacit forum-wide agreement.

Days bleed into each other, then go down the drain, together with the filth. I'm rubbing hard.
I think I have very little skin laft, and what there is, is very thin.
I'm kind raw. I feel kinda raw. Which is stupid. And useless. But there you have it.

And with all of Scar's threats, I won't even play my own hand. Am reluctant still. Go figure. Inner voice says 'Aw, let the man threaten, have his fun! He enjoys it!'
Move along.


Stay up (don't wait up, honey).

Next: more weather...

[spencer]

Well, all right then. I'll be the troll, if the majority agrees.

I say, beyond a glimmer of a doubt, that you are not a troll. I truly mean that, in case it sounds tongue-in-cheek.

[texlaw1992]

TC, you are not a troll in any sense of the word.

I addressed the issue in private with Scarbrow, which (although you're unaware of it) was very helpful.

Please stick around - the place wouldn't be the same without you.

[Scarbrow]

I understand that, as an admin, I must sometimes be subject to criticism. I understand that criticism may be more intense than what a regular member must endure. Maybe the fact that nobody has, until now, shown such a great dislike, anger and disapproval has made me "soft". But I know one thing: I wouldn't wish anybody else to receive as much as I've received. And if any other user had been subject to such attacks, I would have taken drastic measures against the offender.

As for measures, I have edited TC's signature to remove the parts about me. There is a point where taunting becomes "too much to bear".

However, TC raises some valid points, which I'm going to answer.

TC, you may or may not know why did I become an admin. Since you've gone so far in your search, I suppose you know all public information. I'm not sure if this is public, so I'll explain.

I became an admin to take care of "technical" stuff. At that moment, that meant the whole reputation business, which by itself was quite a discussion (though not near the level of this one). I've been taking care of such things for a long time, and I have helped others with questions and doubts. That, alone, would make my job worthwhile. With time, I've been making more moderation job, if only because there are few hands around here to do it. Some of the moderators are more active than others, that much is publicly known. Again, so far nobody complained (at least, not to me, or not publicly). I take that as a acknowledge of my actions, if not open endorsement. I see you're still alone in asking for my demotion. Have you paused to reflect it may be that your position is indeed extreme, if nobody else supports it?

From a technical standpoint, to be able to be an admin, I must also be a moderator. It's the way the vBulletin software works, and there's nothing more to it.

And I would like to remind you that all staff, Shadowblack and me included, are voluntaries. We don't have a job, we are players like you. We wish to help, and we try to do it as best as humanly possible. We can't be expected to please anybody. If you tolerate that the GM himself does not deliver on time, and you're paying him (and quite a bit, from your posts) why are you harder on us?

[Tetracapillactomist]

All well and good, but...

I've been making more moderation job, if only because there are few hands around here to do it. Some of the moderators are more active than others, that much is publicly known.

That just goes against the recent refusal for new staff.

And I mean head on, smashing right into the reason that was given against accepting willing players as moderators.

Maybe that is also unknown to the public? Not sure. Well, I know, it seems. I myself was asked to consider being a mod, since we seem to be playing at laying cards on the table.

I did not expect it, was hesitant, not exactly thrilled, as it meant dialling back on having fun here, I suspected, but as I was told I was needed, I thought I should be willing.

But I suggested they rather consider at least two others, well-established and probably more trusted players and long-time forum members.

All seemed to be on track for that, more or less, when coincidentally you appeared - and perhaps there were other apparitions, but I haven't heard of those - and suddenly the tune changed to 'we don't need more staff.'

Now you're suggesting the opposite of that. Which is it? This isn't a paradox universe, this forum, so the answer should be easy: one or the other, as both cannot be true at the same time.

Either there is a bit of a shortage and the forum can use more staff, but you rather refuse their help, even though it could relieve you of that additional burden of moderation you were forced to assume... - or it does not, in which case there is no need to further burden yourself with that additional duty.

And just so we're clear: once more, I am not speaking on my own behalf, as even if I would have taken on that duty, if asked, and told it was necessary, I could no longer do so, willing or not. Because doing so would make this whole thing look as if it was self-serving. So am out - and was out from the moment I said something to that effect in the staff addition thread, months ago.


Again, so far nobody complained (at least, not to me, or not publicly).

Maybe that does say something. Maybe it says more than one thing. There are several possible ways to interpret that. Try to think of them yourself, because I can't breach confidences of that nature.

I take that as a acknowledge of my actions, if not open endorsement. I see you're still alone in asking for my demotion. Have you paused to reflect it may be that your position is indeed extreme, if nobody else supports it?

I have, but if you read some points in my preceding posts, there is nothing 'extreme' about 'demotion' or what I am asking for.

Do you consider Oldschool's appointment as extreme?

You see correctly. I am still alone. I can't explain it without going into specifics, and possibly names, so I won't.

That's is the greater part of my disappointment and something else.
That hurts much more than your god-invoking screaming, repeated threats, and you practically calling me a troll. Because those things came from a hostile source, and I should be able to take that, weather it, or return it.

I feel like a stuck my neck out about this a bit, and it got a little chopped.
But that doesn't feel as bad, I guess, as someone not being there to catch my head. Too dramatic? Tough. Sorry for being dramatic. Again.

I'll make it much simpler then: it sucked that the the people I stuck my neck out for, a bit, weren't there to... well, it doesn't matter, that's just gonna sound too dramatic as well.

It is what it is - but that's the main reason I considered and am considering quitting (rejoice? breathe a sigh of relief? - whatever, no matter), primarily. Not you. Not sure if that's clear, but it's clear enough to me, and it's my own quitting I'm contemplating after all, so that's enough.


From a technical standpoint, to be able to be an admin, I must also be a moderator. It's the way the vBulletin software works, and there's nothing more to it.

Oh, but there is (more to it than that), if yours is final say too often.
If you use your unquestioned reputation as the tech guru (call it what you will, I'm don't feel like fussing over lexical semantics right now) to overrule, deny, negate, refuse, and dismiss requests, suggestions, doubts.

Out-of-hand fashion, without checking for facts, but rather based on your personal assumptions, suspicions, speculation, and guesses. Things like that might fly with a regular member without any power to act on them, but not so well with someone in a position of power who so often claims to have "unlimited power," and who can therefore not only act on a wrong assumption and pure speculation, but can impose his decision on others. And then that's that, right? Yours does become the final word, and there's no second-guessing it, questioning it, correct? Or will you deny that?

And I would like to remind you that all staff, Shadowblack and me included, are voluntaries. We don't have a job, we are players like you.

Everyone is here on a voluntary basis. Everyone helps on a voluntary basis. Everyone supports the game on a voluntary basis.

No one is forced to do it. No one can be forced to do it. And no one is being paid for anything they do. Not just you and Shadowblack.

And many do enough round here. Some (perhaps) more than you?... Which, again, is understandable, as you have your hands full with the Wiki, and your time and patience taxed by real life, work and personal, preferences, priorities, other games, other things.
I'm not blaming you, I'm stating. Based on your own statements and the apparent facts.
I used 'job' in the sense of 'task.' "Duty,' as it may be referred to in the guidelines of an admin's 'job' description.

We wish to help, and we try to do it as best as humanly possible. We can't be expected to please anybody.

All wish to help. (Yes, even I!) I'm assuming it's helping others we're talking about.

So help then, don't hinder. And the solution to doing what you imply is humanly impossible, is above: get some help. Get more help.

And it is somewhat possible to please everyone, as long as it doesn't really harm others.

At least, that should be the premise you should adopt at the outset, not dismissing the mere possibility so out of hand, so convenient for an excuse in favour of not doing something that can be done!

Where there's a will, there's a way! That's all there is to it, in most cases. That simple, believe it or not...

[Tetracapillactomist]

If you tolerate that the GM himself does not deliver on time, and you're paying him (and quite a bit, from your posts) why are you harder on us?

I do more than "tolerate," I think. And excuse me, but what, how much, and to whom I pay, or why, as well as what I may or may not expect or "tolerate" for it has nothing to do with you, and I probably isn't your business. Sorry for being blunt, but you probably shouldn't attempt using that in arguing your case with me.

Decisions which lead to that are my own, and as such, personal - again, nothing to do with you - and I don't see why you should think that you deserve special consideration on account of them. Am I missing something?

And I am not "paying him," Scarbrow. That sounds a bit off... But whatever I did or am doing, whatever you want to call it, I'm doing for my friends, the community of players, for him, for the game, for this forum, and to some extent, for myself as well - same as what I am asking of you, and as everything I recall asking before, was largely for the benefit of others, even in cases where I needed, could use, or would have liked myself what I was asking for.

Maybe the pricing of Varkyn's ring could serve as a first instance.

Or who knows what else, whether to benefit just one other player who lost an item, or all players in general who might benefit from it.

Same goes for the PM increase and the info relating to it: I seriously doubt I'll get to use it much any more, it's a bit late in some respects - and I certainly won't use it if I quit, or you ban me, but it's there now, late or not, whomever it might really benefit.

And I just don't see how what I pay has anything to with with you, or our relationship, my expectations or your own insults, or mine, or your repeated threats of you banning me... You really are something, and maybe I am missing something, because your reasoning there boggles my mind... "I'm paying him," so why am I "harder on you?"

All right, I kinda see what you're saying, so let me ask you: you probably maintain that you weren't 'hard on me,' had 'nothing against me,' whatever, right? You've done nothing to deserve anything but respect and adulation, maybe. Nothing that anyone could possibly object to...

Yet I'm not 'hard' on many, am I? For instance, I'm not really 'hard' on Oldschool, am I? Why do you think that is? Because he's got prettier blue eyes than you? No. Because he's more agreeable, for one thing, friendlier.
Leaving all that aside... I wasn't 'hard' on you either, for a long time, was I? And Shadowblack?... Even when I had reservations about them, I still supported his opinions, and I recall saying on several occasions that whether his doubts or concerns about the game might come to pass, or not, they're worth considering and keeping in mind.

Well, sometimes you reap what you sow, and sometimes you get a slap in the form of 'short answer: no' and 'what are you doing with them anyway,' accompanied by sighs, rolling eyes, TLDR, and a series of mocking posts where he even changed his signature just to... well, for whatever reason.

I beg your pardon, but "the GM himself?" As if my attitude towards the GM, (basically the source of all this, the game, the forum, the wiki, the creative mind that makes any of this possible, on account of which we gathered here), should automatically be extended to you, your decisions, your attitude (which, regardless of what you think, hasn't much in common with either the GM's or Oldschool's, from my personal experience, but also that of others)?

Why am I harder on you? Because you are 'harder' on us! It's a two-way street. Give and you shall receive. Sow, and you shall reap. Good or bad. Soft or hard.
Accommodating or difficult.

And if anyone says that PM hassle wasn't difficult, I say otherwise, because there too, I stuck my neck out, and took it on the chin. And again, not exactly and primarily for my own benefit, though I did need the space.
And this increase you have affected recently could have been done then.
Without all the hassle and aggravation.

And the info I obtained could have been obtained by you. Especially as an admin with "unlimited powers." Or are your unlimited powers restricted to deleting, denying, threats, and banning. Are they to be used and claimed chiefly for those purposes?

Well, that's anything but helpful, if helping is what you really want to do... Anything but constructive, too.

Again: where there's a will, there's a way.

And speaking of helpful, deleting, threats, and such...

As for measures, I have edited TC's signature to remove the parts about me. There is a point where taunting becomes "too much to bear".

"Parts about you?!" Those were about me! Not about you!

Yes, those were your words. But again, they're about me!

In public view, on open forum, right?

There you go again, censoring! Again, not even trying to ask or communicate.

And this time your own words.

About me.

Visible to anyone.

And I'm not allowed to quote them?!

You must be kidding, right. I'll have to see about this...

And those words of yours, uttered about me - you find them taunting of you?!

So how am I supposed to feel about them, Scarbrow?...

If I'm allowed to ask...

You said those things to and about me because I challenged your deletion, action, your 'unlimited power?'
No, of course not. You said them cos I'm disruptive, belittling, way below civil, always causing drama, a troll, etc.

Tell you what: I will reclaim my signature, and you can delete them if they contain obscenities, insults, spam, lies, or such, or until such time as someone proves to me that I have no right to use them.
Or you can ban me using your 'unlimited powers.'

I'm tired, and you keep prodding me, looking for a fight or a showdown.

I thought it was in both our interests to keep apart, stay out of each other's way. You just keep lording your unlimited powers over me. Keep yelling at me, insulting me, belittling me. Keep deleting my stuff.

Then keep threatening me.

Keep prodding me...

[...] why are you harder on us?

Why?!...

I am dead tired, sleepy, and last thing I wanted was to write another one of these replies.

Last thing I wanted was deal with another deletion... because you find your own words too taunting, "too much to bear."

[Scarbrow]

Hidden on the last tirade there was a question to answer:

Why didn't I reach the GM with the PM issue? Because I have no more luck in contacting him than the regular player - which is, for me, about 1/2 for relatively interesting matters and suggestions, a little more for bugs, and a lot less for other comments. He's a busy guy.

So, when you provided the info, I acted on it.

[Tetracapillactomist]

There is comparative data and information on the net.
It is well known in relevant circles that the vBulletin software/system stores data very efficiently.

For example, one installation we have seen had 5,800+ members, 40,000 threads, 662,000 posts, 70,000 private messages and 8,000 attachments. The total MySQL database size was 940MB - which comes to around 140MB per 100,000 posts. Please note that it does vary from forum to forum, so your mileage may vary.

Info like that is everywhere, and while it doesn't make for one-to-one comparisons, it's indicative of relative storage capacities and rates of data compression in a vBulletin environment.

The GM being busy doesn't make for a blanket excuse for a professional in charge of a forum - including its technology - to miss out on gathering relevant data necessary for the fulfilment of his accepted duties.

The GM doesn't have two separate sets of available time, one for me and one for you.

When lacking information necessary for the fulfilment of your accepted duties, you ask for that information, search for it, obtain it.

Before imposing your will based on your own uninformed, speculative opinion, before acting based on your own assumptions that - as its likelihood was already pointed out to you at that time - were wrong.

Before denying and hindering, relying on excuses like the GM is busy (true, but you can still enquire, let him judge whether he can take a 5-minute break and answer a few questions)...

...or 'I have not time' (make time or shed some duties - you had time for Flash games, World of Warcraft, many other things, just not for obtaining info related to your forum duties, which were clearly stated as requiring time and diligence - not knee-jerk reactions, displays of power, and unwillingness to act based on ignorance of facts)...

...and instead of resorting to clichés like 'you can't please everyone' - a cop-out if used so readily. Because maybe you can't, but you can at least try - and if you cannot even try, maybe someone else should.

It's easier to just say it can't be done even when it can (and cite excuses), than it is to try.

And that's my point: the admin duties, especially with such unlimited moderating powers, were intended to be entrusted to someone who had the time and willingness to really try.

And in my tired 'tirade' above, there was also hidden this:
where there's a will, there's a way.

But that, you didn't catch. You again focussed in on something where an overused excuse could be used again: "he's a busy guy" ...

Do I have to provide the info relevant to your accepted tasks and duties, or is obtaining it part of you fulfilling them?

And if you cannot, for lack of time, or are unwilling, for lack of interest or care - well, that is my point, isn't it?
Why should you hang on to those unlimited powers of yours?
'Abdicate,' and let someone else have a go at it, who can, or is at least willing to try. And also less likely to cause such a division and create such 'bad blood.'

I really think the forum might be in better hands with someone more constantly available and aware, who is able and willing to make time and devote it to looking after this place.

And at least willing to try.

And willing to listen.

And less given to repeated threats.

And less likely to scream and label another loyal forum member.

And less likely to act on a whim, and arbitrarily, without a warning, without advising, without care.

And less likely to hack and slash without even trying to communicate based on another assumption and cop-out, that it's probably not worth to even try.

And who is already taking care of most tasks, information gathering, legwork, clean-up, etc.

(Seems logical. Seems like common sense.)

[Young Ned]

I would like to respond to several points expressed in the last several posts, but it is after 3:00 AM my time and I've had a very long, tiring, and emotionally draining day, so I'm just going to post what I have so far and go to bed.

No one else will say I'm not a troll?

Well, all right then. I'll be the troll, if the majority agrees. Imma be a big boy now, and feed myself too.
Not everyone here has the time or the energy to log in here several times a day and read (and optionally respond to) every new post on this forum. Some people can't even do that once a day. With web forums, you have to have some patience. For the record, I do not consider you a troll. (I do, however, reserve the right to change my mind if you behave like a troll just to live up to the name.)

And if any other user had been subject to such attacks, I would have taken drastic measures against the offender.
The fact that from the beginning you have viewed Tetra’s criticisms/complaints as “attacks” against you suggests to me that you are taking them way too personally. Your very first response in this thread was extremely angry, and subsequent comments like this indicate that you are still feeling a lot of anger. I think it’s very hard for most people to learn that criticisms about the way you do things are not criticisms of you as a person. Yes, Tetra’s tone in his initial post was pretty emotional, but in the sense of “something happened to me that seems unfair and arbitrary and I’m upset not just about what happened, but about the implications it has for how all other users might be treated”, not as in “Scarbrow is a mean, nasty person for what he did to me.”

I've been making more moderation job, if only because there are few hands around here to do it. Some of the moderators are more active than others, that much is publicly known.That just goes against the recent refusal for new staff.

I myself was asked to consider being a mod… but I suggested they rather consider at least two others, well-established and probably more trusted players and long-time forum members.

All seemed to be on track for that, more or less, when coincidentally you appeared… and suddenly the tune changed to 'we don't need more staff.'…

Either there is a bit of a shortage and the forum can use more staff, but you rather refuse their help, even though it could relieve you of that additional burden of moderation you were forced to assume... - or it does not, in which case there is no need to further burden yourself with that additional duty.
I don’t remember or never knew when this took place, so I don’t have a clue how recently it happened. Is it possible that some moderators were more active at that time, thus lessening the perceived need for more, and they have become less active since then?

More to come later...

[spencer]

I have tried really hard to refrain from commenting to this point. It just seems to me that the whole tenor of this thread, whether it is intended that way or not, is that this conflict is a spat between Tetra and Scarbrow. That is why, for the most part, I have refrained from commenting. It does not appear that it will get worked out anytime, soon, and that, to me, is sad. This forum, to me, has long been an example that other forums should strive to follow. It is about civility, humor, knowledge, information and fun. For the most part, this forum still is that for me. It is to the point where now, I have to groan when I see that there is a new post in this thread. I am not asking either of you to get along, resolve your differences or work it out. I am just letting you know that this thread does not represent what this forum is about. I am not assigning blame nor will I. I am just expressing my humble opinion.

[Tetracapillactomist]

First, Ned: I don't intend to become a troll. I rather withdraw than do that - simply not interested in doing that. By saying 'I'll be the troll' I simply meant 'fine, I accept the tacit judgement.' (If it changes, so be it, I'll accept that as well.)

I tried to support and back up those who turned to me, confided in me.

Looks like I may have failed miserably.

*****
Spencer... This was a fun place. It can still be.

But I think the current admins have made that less likely to happen.

Neither of them are able or willing to invest some time finding out the facts that relate to their duties as this forum's admins. Neither of them seem particularly interested in trying to look after the members' wishes, needs, requests, complaints. That's my experience, but not mine alone, otherwise I wouldn't have bothered. Not for my own sake alone. Not that I don't believe in 'don't tread on me, but I take it more personally when others, especially friends, are involved.

One responds with curt, almost hostile, provocative refusal to requests, and continues with mocking and taunting.

(I can weather that, and shed it, if it only affects me, but again, not so willing to put up with it if others are involved.)

The other yells, resorts to name-calling and repeated threats, flaunting of "unlimited powers," censoring, deletion, lack of communication, lack of time for his forum admin duties (cited time and again, ad nauseam, but yet there is time for WoW, time-sucking Ogame, random Flash games, whatever else - not an issue, none of my business, but then the assumed duties of an all-powerful forum admin-mod not being looked after for lack of time no longer float).

In any case, none of this is for me, not even interested in this spat, this back-and-forth. If it was only for me, none of this will I have started, beginning with that miserable PM increase haggling.

And if those involved and for whom this was all brought to the surface aren't interested, then I can do no more, and since there are those that view me as a thorn in the forum's smooth side would rather see me leave with a sigh of relief (unless banning occurs first), at this point it seems I might as well do them a favour.

And I am trying to do that, since 'my side' seems bothered by this as well, or at least unwilling to fully engage and resolve the matter, so like I said, it's pointless, and I failed miserably.

Well, they have their PM limit raised to 10,000, but that's about it. I suppose it's something, but I consider even that my failure: too little, too late, in a way...

I could've done more, but I'm not a fan of extreme measures either, and having avoided resorting to those, my suggestion that Scarbrow relaxes his clenched fists and allows Oldschool to be head moderator (with tech backup, help, support by Scarbrow, or whoever is willing) made him - Scarbrow - call what I asked for "extreme."

As if I were asking for a Guy Fawkes solution.
*****

What is "extreme" about Oldschool? Or about Oldschool being a head moderator?

"Extreme?!..." He's never had a reaction as extreme as Scarbrow's - in fact even I haven't had a reaction as extreme as Scarbrow's...

Spencer, if this makes you groan, it just means I long overstayed my welcome, as I know some will whole-heartedly agree.
It doesn't matter - really. It was great for a while, great while it lasted.

There are others here, and more will come, brighter, and funnier, and friendlier, more helpful, more capable, more creative than me - but most importantly, it seems, more placid and polite, and hopefully more skilled in politics and diplomacy.

(And more skilled in leveraging their assets, in case other forum members need or wish for something. Because I'm just a bit too blunt for most tastes, I think.)

Anyway - I'm doing the best I can at the moment, and I'm barely here.
*****

And sorry to intrude, and to add yet another miserable post to this miserable thread...

But it seemed that Ned thought I intended to turn into a troll - 'T for Troll-Vendetta?' So on that count: no.

Also, you seemed to suggest this was only about personal differences between Scarbrow and I.

Well, it wasn't at all the case in the beginning, I liked him as much as I liked those that I liked the most...

Things sure have changed for the worse, but this still isn't about my dislike of him, believe it or not.

His yelling and insults and threats no longer bother me as much as the blatant posing, show of power, and hypocrisy behind them - and the fact that others were affected in multiple ways, going back months, and mostly hidden, unknown to most.

Whatever inept hand I had in all of it, not being able to handle matters better, more efficiently, and obtain the results without the circus surrounding it, succeeding quietly instead of failing loudly (going out with a bang, whatever), is what I see as my failing, and why I consider my sticking round pointless and undesirable.

I didn't even manage to get one backing for that admin change, as Scarbrow astutely pointed out. LOL indeed - the joke's on me! Heh... That'll learn me!...

[Scarbrow]

The fact that from the beginning you have viewed Tetra’s criticisms/complaints as “attacks” against you suggests to me that you are taking them way too personally. Your very first response in this thread was extremely angry, and subsequent comments like this indicate that you are still feeling a lot of anger. I think it’s very hard for most people to learn that criticisms about the way you do things are not criticisms of you as a person. Yes, Tetra’s tone in his initial post was pretty emotional, but in the sense of “something happened to me that seems unfair and arbitrary and I’m upset not just about what happened, but about the implications it has for how all other users might be treated”, not as in “Scarbrow is a mean, nasty person for what he did to me.”

I plead guilty of this. Sorry.

In TC's defense I must say his latest posts, if somewhat bitter, have been more clearly critics to my moderating/administrating style and choices rather than direct personal allusions. I can disagree with that, but I don't feel offended.

[smv1973]

Spencer... This was a fun place. It can still be.

But I think the current admins have made that less likely to happen.

That is so wrong. The forum was a happy place with the current admins as well as the past one on the old forum. The way I see it is the forum became less fun once you started bitching about everything and just about everyone.

[Oldschool]

First, pardon me for not weighing in earlier. R/l, both work and personal, has been hectic, exhaustive, etc... of late. The personal side is good, just busy and hectic. Not enough hours in the day come to mind.

And to be honest I've not had time to post an ample reply nor have I had the energy of late. However, I feel an obligation of sorts to say something. And not just because I'm a mod, but also because I consider TC and Scarbrow both friends, because others share Spencer's point of view, because I'm embroiled in this due to my prior mod actions.

And bear with me because I'm composing this completely on the fly and continuity/coherence may suffer.

I've also tried not to rehash old stuff, but at this point not to comment on it is akin to an ostrich with his head in the sand.

First we have a staff section. It's where messages re: reported posts are sent to and where we discuss forum operations and the like. We try to run the forum on a staff consensus. And for some things we put it out for a forum consensus.

Re: the PM issue. To echo Scarbrow, the forum staff has no different methods of contacting the GM than anyone else nor do we enjoy any priority status when doing so. In fact that's the main reason I'm hesitant about doing the Questions to the GM. In fact there are posts peppered throughout the forum by me with comments regarding my luck in contacting the GM.

Now with that said that is NOT an indictment, slam, criticism of the GM nor should it be taken or used as such. I've "lost" items and had other issues that have been resolved and have not suffered from lack of communication with the GM. And regular members/players know the GM's staff situation.

My take on the PM debate was to increase them. Scarbrow and others were concerned with possible storage space down the road and from what I recall that was the end reason given for the initial increase. I'm no computer guru by any means, but Scarbrow is so when he urged caution I agreed. And I can't recall who "stood" where initially and it doesn't really matter because in the end a consensus was reached.

Scarbrow being the one that was doing the change and the one with the technical savvy was the one to put it out there in open forum. It could have easily been one of the other staffers once the limit was enacted.

Were we being over-cautious? In hindsight - yes. But once the parameters were known the PM's were increased. Could we have obtained the data ourselves? Probably or at least as TC posted some good guesstimates could have been obtained. To be honest I initially thought the PM's should have been increased and even after the initial limit was enacted I thought it was over cautious. I don't say this to thumb my nose at that initial decision or those that urged it (Scarbrow wasn't a lone wolf urging caution btw), but to offer this perspective. I didn't necessarily agree with that decision even though I agreed to it if that makes any sense. So who should have been the one to dig deeper for an answer/data to refute or dispel the over-cautiousness. Yep, yours truly.

Re: the staff situation. The short of it (yeah boy like I got a short version in me :rolleyes:) I was concerned about a repeat of the previous forum. That being admin staff leaving and only a mod (or worse no one) with limiited powers being able to tend to forum needs. Then some unsolicited PMs from a few to several members shortly afterward and in a week or so's time of one another spurred me to act.

I'm sure more "backstory" can be found in that thread. Or both threads for that matter.

Act ass backwards to be more accurate. While I posted in the staff section I did NOT initially email or PM the admins, which I should've done. A couple of us contacted members re: the possibility of becoming additional staff before the other staff checked in not to mention before a discussion much less a decision whether to add new staff or not was reached. Then after those discussions were in full bloom I had the revelation to PM and/or email the admin staff who responded quickly. But by then the cat was outta the bag and there was no putting the cat back in so to speak.

While I personally don't see a problem with staff redundancy I also have to admit that the daily operation of the forum isn't suffering under the current staff numbers.

Again Scarbrow was the one to take the bull by the horns and put that out there in open forum and again it could've easily been another one of the staff, myself included.

Scarbrow did not come out and say I'm the big cheese and therefore I'm making this (or these) announcement(s). To be honest I can't recall if there was a discussion re: who was making the announcement(s). But this much I do know. I was glad that Scarbrow was making them because I felt a bit uncomfortable about making unpopular announcements.

Did I necessarily agree with them? Doesn't really matter at this point, because they were discussed and decided amongst the staff - not by one person.

Perhaps things might be different had I made those announcements for group staff decisions instead of Scarbrow.

[Young Ned]

First, Ned: I don't intend to become a troll. I rather withdraw than do that - simply not interested in doing that.
Glad to hear you're not planning a career in trollism!

By saying 'I'll be the troll' I simply meant 'fine, I accept the tacit judgement.' (If it changes, so be it, I'll accept that as well.)
...
But it seemed that Ned thought I intended to turn into a troll - 'T for Troll-Vendetta?' So on that count: no.
I didn't think you would, but when your next three posts all started with caveman-like gruntings along the lines of "Me troll -- ugh", I started to get a tiny bit concerned. :)

And if those involved and for whom this was all brought to the surface aren't interested, then I can do no more, and since there are those that view me as a thorn in the forum's smooth side would rather see me leave with a sigh of relief (unless banning occurs first), at this point it seems I might as well do them a favour.

...

There are others here, and more will come, brighter, and funnier, and friendlier, more helpful, more capable, more creative than me - but most importantly, it seems, more placid and polite, and hopefully more skilled in politics and diplomacy.

(And more skilled in leveraging their assets, in case other forum members need or wish for something. Because I'm just a bit too blunt for most tastes, I think.)
How do you improve your skills in politics, diplomacy, and leveraging assets? By practicing them as much as you can and learning from your mistakes, or by leaving when things get messy?

Also, you seemed to suggest this was only about personal differences between Scarbrow and I.

Well, it wasn't at all the case in the beginning, I liked him as much as I liked those that I liked the most...
If by "in the beginning", you mean back in the "increase PM limits" thread, then yes, I'm sure that's true. I also think, though, that your feelings about Scarbrow changed for the worse at that time, and that your reactions to him in general have been reflecting that ever since. Don't you think you would probably have reacted much less strongly to your post being deleted if it had been, say, Oldschool who did it, rather than Scarbrow?

Whatever inept hand I had in all of it, not being able to handle matters better, more efficiently, and obtain the results without the circus surrounding it, succeeding quietly instead of failing loudly (going out with a bang, whatever), is what I see as my failing, and why I consider my sticking round pointless and undesirable.
As I suggested above, I disagree that leaving is the best option. In your place, I would stay but try to "lay low" and practice my tact and diplomacy as much as possible. In particular, I'd try to avoid posting about anything while I was angry. (And believe me, I've had that exact problem many times over the years, and am still occasionally having to relearn the lesson.)

However... If you honestly don't believe you can do that, then maybe you can't; our beliefs about ourselves often become self-fulfilling prophecies. And if you're really sure you can't, then I can see how you might consider it wise to withdraw temporarily and practice your skills elsewhere for a time. I, personally, would not advise you to do that without at least giving it a try for a while first... but everybody's different, and what works for me doesn't work for everybody. So it's ultimately your call, of course.

One [admin] responds with curt, almost hostile, provocative refusal to requests, and continues with mocking and taunting.

The other yells, resorts to name-calling and repeated threats, flaunting of "unlimited powers," censoring, deletion, lack of communication, lack of time for his forum admin duties....
I do have to say that I've been disappointed by both Shadowblack's and Scarbrow's reactions in this and the PM limits thread (which I didn't even see until after this thread started). Patience and civility are important requirements for all admin/moderator folks, especially when dealing with someone whose personality clashes with yours in fundamental ways... i.e., someone who just "rubs you the wrong way." Both of you have posted curt, brusque, irritated, and even angry responses to Tetra's posts. I should have spoken up back when Shadowblack did his "that was way too long to read" post, and I'm sorry I didn't. I tend to avoid confrontation as much as possible, but sometimes it's wrong not to speak up.

An admin who wants a civil forum needs to be a good example to the rest of the forumites, or they will start thinking "Gee, if an admin can be that rude, I guess it's okay for me, too." (To Scarbrow's credit, his later responses have been much better as his anger has receded.)

[mahansolo]

SHUT THE HELL UP, NED!!! :p

Ah, don't you just love smiley faces? But seriously, I have been quite enjoying reading these posts. No, I am not one of those who thrives on the discord of others. There's just something about witnessing how people react to their own and others' perceived short-comings I find fascinating. Often times, good things can come out of the rare breach in civility or politeness.

Example: Scarbrow saying he was sorry. May I suggest a more directed apology to our verbose colleague, Mr. TC? I know, I know. He's insistent, long-winded, belaboring of any point worth belaboring, and a wordsmith of the highest order. If I were running for office, he would be on in my cabinet for spin doctor and speech writer. Furthermore, as one of the most instrumental forces in making this game enjoyable and accessible (both with the wiki and the forum) apologizing after some pretty serious criticism can be hard. I'm happy to see you have that capability. No one likes to be told to shut the hell up or be threatened with being silenced in quite the manner you have expressed.

@TC:You're presence on the forums here as far as I'm concerned is always welcome. You add a unique flavor to this forum. Let me be perfectly clear in stating that the above descriptions of you are only offensive to those who choose to see it that way. Those characteristics are just that: descriptions of a flavor. Other characteristics of you that are not so double-edged: You have the capability to poke fun at yourself and exercise that capability frequently. Not taking one's self seriously is a hallmark of sagedom (and there is always room to grow in that area). You are also very polite and usually make a point of reiterating your respectful intentions. That shows a high priority for consideration of others. You're a mover and a shaker. The world needs 'em. So stick around, dammit.

Oh, I forgot perhaps, the most important of all your traits, TC, is the fact that you give me reps. That is, after all the real reason we're all here: Give mahansolo reps, enjoy the game, and have spirited discussions. In that order. :rolleyes:

[Tetracapillactomist]

This is why I came here: SMV's comment cut to the bone, because in reality I don't, or no longer want anything for myself.
But I can't even give up on those that look to have given up on me, broken their promises, left me in a lurch, at least apparently.

I just can't blame them. Plus who knows what happened, and what can happen. Who knows, if I walk away, whether they'll be here, or anywhere. Who knows anything. It could just be another thing to regret for a lifetime, piled on top of other things, already eating at me since I was a kid, already making me in turn sad as hell, or raging enough to put holes in walls and doors still, bloodying my knuckles, wishing I could lay my hands on some that did what they did...

Anyway, enough 'disclosure,' this is why I landed here again, to post this:
Nice. Too bad you didn't follow it up with a lecture in civility. (Seems easier to preach it than to live it, anyway. Like most things.)
Bitching? I can do more than bitching, if you insist on calling it that. I'd also have a few words with you, starting with what did I do to you, but it might continue in the same vein as your post... What's the use.
Wrong? The way you see it? Been round much in the last half year or more? Even if you have, there might have been I few things you did not see. There might be much you don't see.
Pile all the blame at my feet and spit on it, though, if it makes you feel better, who gives a ...
If it makes you what you are, so be it, I can't change that, nor do I care to.
I listened to others. Some said all's well. Some even said everything is always well, always been, always will be, nothing wrong, let it go, let it all go, submit.
Others said otherwise. I listened to them, because they seemed most in need of support and backup, and stuck my neck out. No big deal though, just another lesson.
Bitching? Like hell. Like bitching about taxation without representation, like 'don't tread on me,' like censorship, freedom of expression, free thought, all the rest, big and small.
Yes, I know all this is small, relatively speaking, I'm not delusional, not a megalomaniac. But to me the 'smallest' single person, unhappy, is as big, or bigger, especially on a small forum like this, than a big cause, or a country, or anything you might think worthy of "bitching."
Your advice then would be to keep quiet, don't rock the boat, don't get involved, don't "bitch."

Fine, have it your way. All of it is my doing, my fault, it's all on my head, even in my head, none of it even really exists, not a hint of anything ever having been wrong, except for me and my "bitching." Thanks much.
Have back your happy, perfect, polite, fun fantasy. Sorry I spoiled your fun.

That was it. Then I read Ned's post... Now I've got to think. Again. At this point I'm really bouncing back and forth, running into walls one minute, growling 'hmm' thoughtfully the next. Sometimes I feel an urge to put my fist through the laptop as a final disconnect, if I can't make myself stay away any other way. As in, I tried to do the right things, but they don't seem to work, and sometimes they caused even more suffering, and bigger than anything on this forum, so I just want to end it, and rage for a change.
There's a lot built up. But this isn't the place for all that.

Then I read Mahan's post, and now I really don't know what to do. I mean what can I say to that. If I think about what he said, right now, it might even set me blubbering like an idiot.

Damn it. I'll just say thank you. For the good. And the bad too, what the hell...

Yeah, reps I can do, I'll do that now. Won't comment in them though, feeling kinda raw, and it's... well, whatever it is, it's not much, just a thank you. Just feeling like I'm pacing up and down like mad, like I've got some place to get to, but can't, like caged wolves and dingos I used to watch as a kid, feeling their pain and rage behind the resigned looks in their eyes, heads lowered most of the time.

Sometimes polite society makes me itch...

I hope this rant was fun. Or funny, to some. Maybe most. Which is normal, and to be expected, so I have no problem with it, I don't care how this looks any more. If the consensus is that I've gone mad, that's fine too. Who knows, could be right. At least to some extent. I myself feel like laughing at myself right now, and often.

My words stand in for the pacing back and forth, right now. Before this too. Maybe too often.

I gotta take a break. Maybe smash, break, shatter something to smithereens, blow after repeated blow, till I can't feel my hand. Gotta let go of this. Ha-ha. Ha.

Anyway, thanks, and have fun. Really, I mean it: laugh, have fun.

(And don't worry, I'm not much crazier than usual, it's just that don't normally talk about these things. Also, don't forget that I too feel like laughing at myself - crazy or not, still aware. I meant that too.
Well, there's another wall of text... Pacing up and down.)

[Tetracapillactomist]

Damn it! It happened again! I was giving Spencer a rep, saying sorry and thanks, typed in my comment (I did add comments after all), and the stupid thing thanked me for "deducting reputation from this user," or something like that!

I did no such thing, ... ...... ....... ... ...... ! I want that reversed, if possible.

If the same thing happened with anyone else's rep, I'm sorry! They were all intended a positive reps, not negative! I'll stop now before I start cursing.

[edit] Just as well, I'm out of reps.

[Doolipalally]

Reps have gone out to Scarbrow for his apology, Oldschool for some useful clarification, YN for thought-provoking stuff and Mahansolo for injecting some much-needed humour into this thread. Hopefully anyone who didn't get a rep won't feel left out :)

I haven't been around much over the last couple of days, partly because of internet connection problems, partly because we have visitors, but also, if I'm honest, because of the existence of this thread. I got to the stage where I decided I wasn't going to continue reading it, because everything I read was making me more depressed, but my willpower isn't actually strong enough to stop me clicking on the link in 'New posts'. The only answer was to stay away from the forum for a few days.

I've learned two things from this. One is that this forum community has more of an effect on my mood than I realised. The other, proved just now when I caught up on developments, is that I ought to have more faith in the people round here to pull positive stuff out of conflict. Thank you.

[Young Ned]

If the consensus is that I've gone mad, that's fine too. Who knows, could be right. At least to some extent. I myself feel like laughing at myself right now, and often.
...
(And don't worry, I'm not much crazier than usual, it's just that don't normally talk about these things. Also, don't forget that I too feel like laughing at myself - crazy or not, still aware. I meant that too.

You've managed to remind me of a line from one of C.S. Forester (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C._S._Forester)'s Horatio Hornblower (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horatio_Hornblower) novels: "If Hornblower had not possessed the ability to laugh at himself, he would long ago have become one of the mad captains on the Navy list." (Paraphrasing from dim memory.)

[Scarbrow]

Reps have gone out to Scarbrow for his apology, Oldschool for some useful clarification, YN for thought-provoking stuff and Mahansolo for injecting some much-needed humour into this thread. Hopefully anyone who didn't get a rep won't feel left out :)

I haven't been around much over the last couple of days, partly because of internet connection problems, partly because we have visitors, but also, if I'm honest, because of the existence of this thread. I got to the stage where I decided I wasn't going to continue reading it, because everything I read was making me more depressed, but my willpower isn't actually strong enough to stop me clicking on the link in 'New posts'. The only answer was to stay away from the forum for a few days.

I've learned two things from this. One is that this forum community has more of an effect on my mood than I realised. The other, proved just now when I caught up on developments, is that I ought to have more faith in the people round here to pull positive stuff out of conflict. Thank you.

Thanks, Dooli.

This has also affected me quite more than I expected. I've come to trust the people around here a lot. We are a scattered-through-the-world, strange, mixed family in here, but I like it the way it is.

And public thanks for your intervention as well, Young Ned.

By the way, I found and corrected TC's negative repp to Spencer. Now it's positive :)

[spencer]

I was a going to propose that we have a moderator-led discussion if there are more issues to resolve. I am not sure if there are. Does anyone have any thoughts on continuing the discussion to identify if any further changes are needed, how to implement those changes and who is responsible for seeing that they are?

[Oldschool]

I've been giving Spencer's reply time to "simmer" but then thought some folks may be intentionally avoiding this thread. Plus if a discussion is enjoined a separate thread seems "better" so I created one.

Here's the link, http://www.srythforum.com/showthread.php?t=1940

And this is a bit repetitive as it's mentioned in the thread but let's keep the discussion limited to whether further discussions are needed/wanted before we get involved into the possible whats, whens, whys, etc.....