Free-hand combat

[Valiance]

One of the main reasons I stopped playing Sryth was because I roleplay, and my roleplay character is a warrior, but he only uses a sword, no shield or anything. So I sent this suggestion to the game master. I wanted to hear what you guys though about it.

A long while back, I sent in a suggestion in regards to 'free-hand' combat. In other words, a character wields a one-handed weapon, but no shield. I told you about how my character only uses a one-handed weapon, but no shield, because of roleplaying purposes. Because that's who he is. Unfortunately, by doing this, I miss out on anywhere between 1-14 points of melee rating for not using a shield. That's a pretty big loss! And the game is somewhat frustrating to play in this style, because with such a big hit to my melee rating, it's hard for me to move further on in the game because my MR isn't as high as it could be. But I talked to you a long time ago about the possible merits of freehand fighting, seeing as how a person with a free hand is more versatile in a fight, being able to grab, punch, shove, deflect, and if nothing else, simply use that free hand for balance. However, at the time, I hadn't actually proposed any ral idea for how to implement it. I have now, and I'll get to that in a moment.

Another thing I've noticed is that while many skills are great, I'm sorry to say that many of the weaponry skill's bonuses are a bit....sub-par. I mean, if you think about it, while a better weapon is certainly a boon, in all reality (I know, we're talking about a fantasy roleplay here, but I mean as real as one might get, considering) a person's skill is usually the defining factor in a fight, not their weapon. However, the weaponry skills give you one extra melee point for every 10 points you have in that skill. This means that the most you can have in a weapon, from skill alone, is +20 melee points. (+10 from Weaponry, and another +10 from a weaponry subskill ex. Weaponry: Slashing)

The weapon my character is wielding right now, the "Howling Wolf Blade", gives me the same melee rating as a character who's completely maxed out both a weaponry skill and a weaponry sub-skill. This doesn't...really seem quite right to me. I'm at the point where it costs over 3,000 experience points to upgrade either of my weaponry skills. I'm at level 70 in both of them. Considering the amount of experience involved in getting those skills to that level, that's quite an accomplishment! But I'm left feeling somewhat....unaccomplished, because I'm now at the point where I'm likely to spend possibly as much as 20,000 experience points just to get another +1 to my melee rating. It seems better to spend that experience on other skills like thievery, or woodsmanship, or on powers.....they have a much bigger impact on the game than just +1 to my melee rating.

Well, I actually am about to propose a fix to both of these. Please be patient with me just a little while longer. I propose that people that fight with a free-hand, with a one-handed weapon but with no shield, get the following bonuses.

1: They get DOUBLE the bonus of their weaponry skill to their melee rating.

2: They get half again (1.5, rounded down) the bonus of a weaponry sub-skill to their melee rating.

So in case you have a headache today and want this simplified, say a person has 100 Weaponry, and 100 Weaponry slashing. This would normally give him +20 to his melee rating total. But if he fights with a free hand, it gives him +35, an additional fifteen points. This seems a fair trade, seeing as how the most powerful shield, (That I've seen, that is) the "Griffon Emblazoned Shield", gives +14 to melee rating. You could consider the extra +1 point from the weaponry skills a kind of bonus reward for gather that phenomenal amount of experience. But it would encourage, at least a certain amount of people, to put more effort into the weaponry skills, as now they're more game-impacting.

This would make the game more fun for freehand roleplayers like me to play a character we're comfortable with. (On a completely unselfish note, it would also allow me to progress further into my game =D )

Okay, well, this suggestion has not been implemented, but I wanted to hear about what everyone else thought.

[shadowblack]

Just a note, but (currently) the max you get from the Weaponry skills is not +10. At levels 80 and 90 the bonus is +2 instead of +1, and at level 100 the bonus is +4. In addition the higher your skill level in your Weaponry subskill the more frequent the temporary MR boosts.

Also, we now have better shields available.

and yes, I too dislike the fact that equipmwnt is more important than skills.

[thingirl]

But, that would encourage players to stop using/ not get the GIS because the bonuses from freehand are better at the cost of a few SP.

[Maskull]

There's also the issue of Adventure Tokens. If people had little to no use for shields at certain points in the game, wouldn't that affect the current dynamics of this main source of revenue for the game? So who can blame the GM for being reluctant to implement your idea however good it is? This may sound callous at first glance, but without sound business practices growing apace with the game's evolution, there might not be a game at all.

[Joddelle]

What Maskull said. Equipment is as important as it is for a reason, and I while I'm distressed I don't have the gaming budget of of a Thordon or an Elendil, I would have things no other way.

I love this game, and I love that subscriptions are so cheap. If the GM didn't have the revenue source of AT sales, the game would either be more expensive to play, or more likely would not exist.

Besides, I find the original suggestion mind-bogglingly stupid. (not the poster, the suggestion.) Assuming equal levels of skill, the guy with the shield is always better off than the guy without one.

[thingirl]

Excatly, but he was just trying to make a point. (Because ranting is Badstench's thing.)

[Lightwielder]

Besides, I find the original suggestion mind-bogglingly stupid. (not the poster, the suggestion.) Assuming equal levels of skill, the guy with the shield is always better off than the guy without one.

That's not necessarily true. A shield can get in the way if you make it a habit and skill to tend to dodge your opponents' attacks. If you're going to dodge their attacks, the shield would be pointless, because you wouldn't be blocking with it. Also, the shield adds extra weight, so it might have some merit. Yes, this is assuming equal levels of skill, but how they use that skill would be different.

[Joddelle]

History channel has a series on this sort of thing, pitting differing fighting styles against each other in both SCA-type non-lethal combat and in computer simulation.

Styles that don't use shields do not fare well.

[Oldschool]

Well to muddy the water a bit more and revive some older discussions.

What about dual wielding, two-handed weapon wielders, and unarmed fighters.

Dual wielding could be limited to certain weapon sizes such as nothing larger than a medium (i.e. short sword, mace) weapon in the "main hand" and a small (i.e. dagger, dirk) in the "off hand".

Unarmed fighters still suffer a ring slot penalty, of sorts, for fighting certain creatures as the have to equip one of Wryxn's (sp?) Rings. As has been mentioned before, gauntlets with an MR bonus should automatically get Wryxyn's Rings powers or should they.

Here's where balanced game play comes in. Unfortunately I'm not a combat mechanic guru but I understand the basic fundamentals, so......

Unarmed is "better" until one gets at the extreme levels while armed with the "better" weapons. Also one ring slot is marginal in comparison to a shield. The ring slot issue helps offset the advantage unarmed has until these levels are reached especially when you take into account an unarmed fighter can carry a shield. Perhaps the thing would be once an unarmed skill hits a certain level that ability is automatically gained but not until then. That would keep balance in the game in my opinion.

I'd definitely like the ability to dual-wield as others would like to fight without a shield with either one or two handed weapons. Again balanced game play comes to mind.

Dual wielding should give take the other weapons MR bonus in account obviously. Also two-handed weapon types should get take extra MR into account as should those that wield one-handed weapons without the encumbrance of a shield.

Here is where it gets interesting and I'll put it into terms most of us are familiar with - D&D. The combat system in the game is different than D&D. There is no separation and comparisons between Armor Class and Attack Rolls. To realistically implement dual-wielding, two-handed experts as well as the shieldless one-handers would require some separation/difference along D&D type conceptual lines.

Giving one of these fighters an across the board bonus that is equal for attack and defense is unrealistic. Do they have the same chance as blocking or even parrying an attack as a shield wielder and conversely does the shield wielder have the same attack advantage as one of them? I think not. Unfortunately, under the current system there is no way to effectively separate the two.

There in lies part of the problem. The other thing to consider is how hard or how much of his limited time would this be for the GM to implement.

Of course my understanding of the basic fundamentals could be "compromised" which would make this a load of malarkey...... :rolleyes:

[Lightwielder]

History channel has a series on this sort of thing, pitting differing fighting styles against each other in both SCA-type non-lethal combat and in computer simulation.

Styles that don't use shields do not fare well.

Yes, but forgive me if I question the reliability of the source or the tests done. Assuming that they were all done properly and naturally, though, how do you know that it wasn't just coincidence?

(PS: I have nothing against History Channel, but were the tests "equal skill"? How do they know? What styles did they try, etc. I think it would be extraordinarily difficult for them to reproduce the "natural fighting." Especially if it was non-lethal. They have to hold back, at least to some degree. What if they were TRULY trying to kill each other, would they get the same results? I don't think non-lethal can really judge that.)

[solitu]

Just trying to add a plausible answer in RPG sense:

We're using magical shields, the magic concealed in which is even more helpful and effective than mortal battle skills in combats.

Also, (sorry if you think I'm being cynical), have you ever thought that all your armor makes you slow and dull? But you're not going to take them off, are you?

[thingirl]

Like the GIS, or GES.

[Joddelle]

Yes, but forgive me if I question the reliability of the source or the tests done. Assuming that they were all done properly and naturally, though, how do you know that it wasn't just coincidence?

(PS: I have nothing against History Channel, but were the tests "equal skill"? How do they know? What styles did they try, etc. I think it would be extraordinarily difficult for them to reproduce the "natural fighting." Especially if it was non-lethal. They have to hold back, at least to some degree. What if they were TRULY trying to kill each other, would they get the same results? I don't think non-lethal can really judge that.)
The non-lethal simulations were done a few times and spliced/edited into the fight you see at the end of the show. The computer modeling was pretty high-tech and they used data gathered from cameras, motions sensors, direct measurements of damages done to beef and pork carcasses, and much more. It's a pretty interesting show. They run the simulation 1000 times and post the results as "Wallace wins 640 times and Shaka-Zulu wins 360" - the best part of the show is watching experts in all the various weapons go all-out in attack against hanging carcasses and crash-test dummies and brick walls and sheet-metal-clad plywood to measure their various properties like penetration and weapon speed, etc.

[zmflavius]

Oh, and a noob question here:

What's GIS and what's GES?

[Doolipalally]

Oh, and a noob question here:

What's GIS and what's GES?

I can do GIS - Glittering Ice Shield - but I was wondering about GES too. Is this a Tallys item I can't afford so haven't spotted? :)

[solitu]

lol GES = griffon emblazoned shield

Thingirl, you're using too many abbreviations and sometimes I find it difficult to follow you. We old guys can only recognize easy ones like SSL...:p

[Doolipalally]

I can do GIS - Glittering Ice Shield - but I was wondering about GES too. Is this a Tallys item I can't afford so haven't spotted? :)

lol GES = griffon emblazoned shield



That'll be a 'yes', then! Thanks, solitu.

[Taleria]

lol GES = griffon emblazoned shield

Thingirl, you're using too many abbreviations and sometimes I find it difficult to follow you. We old guys can only recognize easy ones like SSL...:p

Haha. Thanks, Solitu and Zmflavius. I wondered what GES was, too.

Agreed about the abbreviations. Many of them are not standardized in the Srythian jargon, so of course, we have trouble.

[thingirl]

Sorry, ILTUAWIC. I like to use abbreviations whenever I can

[Maskull]

Has the possibility of establishing a trading system in the game ever been suggested? I mean things that have no impact on the unique-item methodology and strategy coded into the game. Like the wooden icons of Palk, for example, or conjured items. It would be nice to have some kind of auction/buy/sell/trade board for these curious items. Just for the halibut, as some would say and have it.