Weaponry: Staves, something a bit more magicky?

[Daffanka]

I'll start out by saying that I know of Tzal Toalth and the pretty amazing power it gets in later stages. Please don't bring it up, because it is a part of the problem with staves and magic.

Staves are often seen as the magician's weapon, they're seen as something to augment the magic powers of the wielder. I don't think this shows through in Sryth, because a magician wielding a staff is still restricted by his limited pool of NvR. Don't get me wrong, I don't think someone wielding a staff should have a limitless reserve of NvR as that would just be ridicolously overpowered, but I do think someone wielding a staff should have several distinct perks regarding it, sacrificing MR for it. Right now, a staff wielder with high Necromancy and skill in his chosen weapon will just see more MR instead of any kind of magic related advantages.

The general idea is that wielding a staff will, with a set chance on every melee attack (perhaps increased depending on the type of attack, to encourage a risk-reward kind of thing) to recover a set amount of NvR.

The chance, in this case, would rely mostly on the wielder's Weaponry: Staves skill, replacing the MR it increases.


0 skill, 2% chance
10 skill, 3% chance
20 skill, 4% chance
30 skill, 5% chance
40 skill, 7% chance
50 skill, 9% chance
60 skill, 11% chance
70 skill, 13% chance
80 skill, 16% chance
90 skill, 20% chance
100 skill, 25% chance


The set amount of NvR would depend on the staff. Something like a beefed up Tzal Toalth might restore as much as 5 NvR while a Taloned Staff would just restore 1 or 2. You would also have to reduce the MR bonuses of staves.

This is so that using magic as your primary weapon will be possible, instead of it being a big cannon that you only bring out when there's real trouble. The tradeoff for this would be significantly reduced MR (no shield + no weaponry MR bonus + less MR from staves.)

Now I see quite a few problems with this, the biggest being the people who already have all their skills in the 90s and 200+ MR. They would barely be hurt by the loss of ~40 MR (or however much Weaponry:X, the reduced staff MR and a shield together count for) and they'd most likely wield a staff all the time, reaping the benefits while barely noticing the disadvantages. The best answer I can give it that the game isn't, and should not, be designed around walking demi gods. It's my opinion that very little grinding should be required to enjoy the game, and right now I think that's very much true with a few exceptions (optional bosses.) Some people have been grinding for hundreds of hours, and they're most likely brushing through everything even without this.

The other problem is that with the amount of AS&P exp being thrown around, you'd see a lot of fighting types with quite high skill in staves, meaning they can switch wield their normal weapon when throwing spells, then switching to a staff against lesser enemies to gather NvR. I'm honestly not sure how to counter this one, other than perhaps adding some sort of countdown from when you wielded the staff to when it starts to regain NvR (either time or rounds.)

So yeah, kinda felt like getting that out there with a nice wordy post. If anyone has critique or suggestions it's just a post button away. That's what this forum's here for, after all. :)

[zmflavius]

I agree fully with you when you say that staves are probably the most under-powered weapon type in the game. One glaring example is the Iakor's/Shimmering silver weapons. All of those weapons are more or less equal, except for their staff versions, which require two hands. Even the Tallys staves are all poor weapons, often having only their low MR bonus. In fact, I would go so far as to say that only two remotely good staves exist in the game: Tzal-Toalth, which really is only useful with 100 necromancy and Ghor-tiln's eye, and then, you end up taking a hit on your NV/SP, and Trielra's staff, which is inferior to the Shimmering Silver Longsword in every aspect except for it's small NV bonus.

Unfortunately, I have not yet finalized a workable idea to balance staves in this respect.

[thingirl]

Actually, Trielra's is one handed. And comparisons:

SSL (post Tarn Fountain) (MR 171)

Your Phantom Weapon is cloaking this item. Phantom bonuses are listed in purple below.

* Class: Weapon, Slashing
* Encumbrance: 4
* Quality: Magical
* Power: Haste
* Melee Rating: +24/+4
* Stamina Points: +5/+4
* Body: +1/+4
* Mind: +1/+4
* Spirit: +1/+4
* This item has been imbued with a special magical bonus:
+2 Melee Rating

Trielra's (MR 163)

* Class: Weapon, Staff
* Encumbrance: 8
* Quality: Magical
* Power: Energy Drain
* Melee Rating: +20, and +15 extra vs. Demons, and +12 extra vs. Undead, and +11 extra vs. shadow
* Aura: +2
* Mind: +1
* Spirit: +1
* Nevernal Reserve: +4

Tzal-Tolath w/ Ghor-tiln's eye and Necro 72. (MR 159)

* Class: Weapon, Staff
* Encumbrance: 8
* Quality: Magical
* Power: Swarm of Bats
* Melee Rating: +34/+4, and +5 extra vs. Undead, and +5 extra vs. Demons
* Aura: +1/+4
* Spirit: +1/+4
* Requires 2 hands

[Joddelle]

What I'd like to see is that the skill weaponry (staves) gives bumps to NV instead of MR or better yet gives 1/2 of its bonus to MR and the other half to NV.

Bonus|Level
1 MR|Level 1.
1 NV|Level 10.
1 MR|Level 20.
1 NV|Level 30.
1 MR|Level 40.
1 NV|Level 50.
1 MR|Level 60.
1 NV|Level 70.
1 MR, 1 NV|Level 80.
1 MR, 1 NV|Level 90.
2 MR, 2 NV|Level 100.
It's simple and clean and it makes staves unique from other weapons.

[zmflavius]

Yes, i knew that Trielra's was one-handed but that doesn't change the fact that SSL is better as a general use wep. I do like Joddelle's idea though...

[solitu]

From my point of view, weaponry skills solely reflect how one uses a weapon effectively in the physical sense. Magical attributes should be of the weapons. The variety, if there were going to be any, should lie in the weight, length, shape or other physical attributes of a weapon, ie

If you're wielding a heavy staff, the enemie's to-hit number is higher, but you do more damage if you hit him.
If, on the other hand, you're wielding a dagger, you face lower to-hit number but you do less damage.

For an enemy that's 3+ to hit with a sword:
Staff, Warhammer, etc: 4+/5+ to hit, something like 50 damage when you roll an aggressive 20.
Dagger, Wand, etc: 2+ to hit, something like 25 damage when you roll an aggressive 20.

As for NvR, I think it should depend on Arcana in some way...

[Elrond]

This is a great discussion that is the tip of the iceberg with regards to weapon variety and specialty in Sryth. We only have different names for weapons that give the same standard bonuses: + MR, + SP, magic power damage, dodge, etc......

A 2-H sword doesn't give more damage that a broadsword. And a staff is "physically" as devastating as a Pike!

Fixing this "fixed" weapon status requires a significant upgrade from the GM which will require some time to finish. And I add my vote for any initiative aiming to convince the GM to put it in his plans (medium or long term).

[zmflavius]

From my point of view, weaponry skills solely reflect how one uses a weapon effectively in the physical sense. Magical attributes should be of the weapons. The variety, if there were going to be any, should lie in the weight, length, shape or other physical attributes of a weapon, ie

If you're wielding a heavy staff, the enemie's to-hit number is higher, but you do more damage if you hit him.
If, on the other hand, you're wielding a dagger, you face lower to-hit number but you do less damage.

For an enemy that's 3+ to hit with a sword:
Staff, Warhammer, etc: 4+/5+ to hit, something like 50 damage when you roll an aggressive 20.
Dagger, Wand, etc: 2+ to hit, something like 25 damage when you roll an aggressive 20.

As for NvR, I think it should depend on Arcana in some way...

Another interesting thing about weapons being generically the same is how I recall that during the Caves of Westwold quest for LnFlavia, she was fighting unarmed, but the official text says "your final blow takes off Blalak's head." Also, there are bits where you smash up doors and walls as if you were carrying a warhammer and not a longsword or your bare fists.

[Joddelle]

From my point of view, weaponry skills solely reflect how one uses a weapon effectively in the physical sense. Magical attributes should be of the weapons.

I respect that and you have a strong case, but I disagree with the premise that weapon/item training should as a matter of principle have no impact on NV.

Who knows how magic and the nevernal works? Perhaps the correct training allows you to use a staff as an 'antenna' of sorts, drawing in greater NV reserves with the proper piece of equipment.

I do think - and it was brought up in the old forum - that it would be nifty as all Onyxus if Arcana did the same thing for NV as Weaponry does for MR.

[zmflavius]

I respect that and you have a strong case, but I disagree with the premise that weapon/item training should as a matter of principle have no impact on NV.

Who knows how magic and the nevernal works? Perhaps the correct training allows you to use a staff as an 'antenna' of sorts, drawing in greater NV reserves with the proper piece of equipment.

I do think - and it was brought up in the old forum - that it would be nifty as all Onyxus if Arcana did the same thing for NV as Weaponry does for MR.

But Onyxus isn't nifty, it's a hellish, burning place, where there is much weeping and gnashing of teeth.;)

[solitu]

But Onyxus isn't nifty, it's a hellish, burning place, where there is much weeping and gnashing of teeth.
That's exactly what Joddelle means. Nifty as HELL
(oh yes I spelled it out:p)

Who knows how magic and the nevernal works? Perhaps the correct training allows you to use a staff as an 'antenna' of sorts, drawing in greater NV reserves with the proper piece of equipment.
That's an interesting idea. It reminds me of the question if the frequency of magical attacks from weapons could ever be improved by certain skills or something else...

[majesty]

I associate a staff with casting magic (not a Bashing weapon as it is now).
My idea is that a staff:
During combat:
1. increases chance against a failure of the cast
2. increases the power of the spell
3. gives additional NVR
4. gives very little MR (as it is still some stick the you can use to hit everyone around you)

during rolls:
to give a bonus to your roll or to lower the the requirement for the roll

So I see the combat with staff in pure casting mode. When you start with fortification, divination to get magical armor and to lower targets to-roll value (dunno how it is called). Then use different attack spells to destroy the enemy. Maybe even get some NvR back after the battle (same as restoration for SP).

[thingirl]

OK, I saw your location and wanted to say: Привяат Магести!!!

[Doolipalally]

OK, I saw your location and wanted to say: Привяат Магести!!!

Thought it was привет? :p

[thingirl]

I always get my я and my е mixed up. Thanks Dooli. At least you can spell better than me, and in 2 languages!

[Oldschool]

I'm guessing Dooli's been brushing up.

And welcome to the forum majesty.

[majesty]

Привет thingirl!
Thanks Oldschool. New forum is way better!

[Badstench]

I've really tried to resist answering this post... the original question disqualified me for the fact that I chased the full power of Tzal-Toalth.

There are a few comments i would like to make about staves as a viable weapon, some of which have no bearing on the game mechanics.

1) This relates to the movie, "Lord of the Rings". If you've seen it, you might have noticed Gandalf wield his staff in a manner that was just as deadly as a club or a flail. a wizard with a staff isn't restricted to one type of attack... ie, spells.

2) Do you recall the meeting between Robin Hood and Little John? They fought with quarter staffs. In the practiced hands, a quarter staff could be deadly. Is this so different from a staff as we might otherwise envision it?

3) The martial art of Kendo requires a dexterity and balance that takes the wielding of staves into consideration. Kendo is not just about long sticks, but also about two handed sticks. thumpity thumpity


4) But the original suggestion was for the skill of staves to offer us different abilities/ rewards in the use of. I won't and don't advocate this... at least, not within the current game mechanics. To do so would be to widen the premise to every weapon choice.

So... the bottom line is... if you have an argument/ discussion... you have to have an alternative/ solution.

to say, "I don't like it" or "it should be this way" is tantamount to begging the question... "How should it be otherwise?"

A few alternatives were offered, which is greatly appreciated. I especially zeroed in on Joddelles suggestion, and was both horrified and intrigued.

I say this because I am the first player who took staves to legendary status for a particular reason; to gain the full benefit of MR when wielding Tzarl-Toalth.

Two staffs have become available in the meantime that rival the Bat staff.

shrug. That's the nature oif the game... that we find better weapons as time progresses.

But I retain the title, "Necromancer extraordinaire".

Nyar nyar!

[zmflavius]

I've really tried to resist answering this post... the original question disqualified me for the fact that I chased the full power of Tzal-Toalth.

There are a few comments i would like to make about staves as a viable weapon, some of which have no bearing on the game mechanics.

1) This relates to the movie, "Lord of the Rings". If you've seen it, you might have noticed Gandalf wield his staff in a manner that was just as deadly as a club or a flail. a wizard with a staff isn't restricted to one type of attack... ie, spells.

2) Do you recall the meeting between Robin Hood and Little John? They fought with quarter staffs. In the practiced hands, a quarter staff could be deadly. Is this so different from a staff as we might otherwise envision it?

3) The martial art of Kendo requires a dexterity and balance that takes the wielding of staves into consideration. Kendo is not just about long sticks, but also about two handed sticks. thumpity thumpity


4) But the original suggestion was for the skill of staves to offer us different abilities/ rewards in the use of. I won't and don't advocate this... at least, not within the current game mechanics. To do so would be to widen the premise to every weapon choice.

So... the bottom line is... if you have an argument/ discussion... you have to have an alternative/ solution.

to say, "I don't like it" or "it should be this way" is tantamount to begging the question... "How should it be otherwise?"

A few alternatives were offered, which is greatly appreciated. I especially zeroed in on Joddelles suggestion, and was both horrified and intrigued.

I say this because I am the first player who took staves to legendary status for a particular reason; to gain the full benefit of MR when wielding Tzarl-Toalth.

Two staffs have become available in the meantime that rival the Bat staff.

shrug. That's the nature oif the game... that we find better weapons as time progresses.

But I retain the title, "Necromancer extraordinaire".

Nyar nyar!

you go wep: staves to 100 first and not Magical?

[Oldschool]

you go wep: staves to 100 first and not Magical?


I say this because I am the first player who took staves to legendary status for a particular reason; to gain the full benefit of MR when wielding Tzarl-Toalth.



I think that's what he meant.

[thingirl]

But his other skills (probably) suffered.

[Badstench]

Thanks Oldschool... you hit the nail on the... erm... other nail... head, thing, hammer.

Regardless, This is my claim to fame.... Judge Fury attained a legendary status in Necromancy.... in any power, he was second behind Havoc to do this.

Now, I have a theory that might pull Judge Fury to first, namely that Havoc has recently moved closer to home... being in England, his leprechaunness is coming to fruition, which would disqualify him on the basis of inate magic trickiness.

And as we all know, leprechauns are really from Scotland and they're scary and bonkers!

(Yes, Dooli... that was a smile at you)

[Elrond]

I say this because I am the first player who took staves to legendary status for a particular reason; to gain the full benefit of MR when wielding Tzarl-Toalth.

But I retain the title, "Necromancer extraordinaire".

Nyar nyar!

Magical had a particular reason for leveling all his skills to lvl 100. He wanted to be the first to do it.

So, we might as well live with it. All of us are second to Magical when it comes to mentioning legendary status in any skill or power. And that does not belittle any legendary achievement at all. In fact, Badstench's legendary Necromancy is quite amazing in that he was able to do it in such a short time. He was intent on a purpose, and fulfilled it!

[scout1idf]

.....And as we all know, leprechauns are really from Scotland and they're scary and bonkers!

(Yes, Dooli... that was a smile at you)

Sorry BS,
Actually they are Irish.

[Elrond]

Sorry BS,
Actually they are Irish.

Touche!

(nice catch Scout. Repped)

[scout1idf]

Touche!

(nice catch Scout. Repped)

Thanks, I didn't know if he was (still) just picking on the Scottish or got it wrong.

[thingirl]

You know, my mom's family is Scottish. At least, the name is. And "touche" is a fencing term that means "I have been touched.".

[majesty]

I've really tried to resist answering this post... the original question disqualified me for the fact that I chased the full power of Tzal-Toalth.

There are a few comments i would like to make about staves as a viable weapon, some of which have no bearing on the game mechanics.

1) This relates to the movie, "Lord of the Rings". If you've seen it, you might have noticed Gandalf wield his staff in a manner that was just as deadly as a club or a flail. a wizard with a staff isn't restricted to one type of attack... ie, spells.

2) Do you recall the meeting between Robin Hood and Little John? They fought with quarter staffs. In the practiced hands, a quarter staff could be deadly. Is this so different from a staff as we might otherwise envision it?

3) The martial art of Kendo requires a dexterity and balance that takes the wielding of staves into consideration. Kendo is not just about long sticks, but also about two handed sticks. thumpity thumpity


4) But the original suggestion was for the skill of staves to offer us different abilities/ rewards in the use of. I won't and don't advocate this... at least, not within the current game mechanics. To do so would be to widen the premise to every weapon choice.

So... the bottom line is... if you have an argument/ discussion... you have to have an alternative/ solution.

to say, "I don't like it" or "it should be this way" is tantamount to begging the question... "How should it be otherwise?"

A few alternatives were offered, which is greatly appreciated. I especially zeroed in on Joddelles suggestion, and was both horrified and intrigued.

I say this because I am the first player who took staves to legendary status for a particular reason; to gain the full benefit of MR when wielding Tzarl-Toalth.

Two staffs have become available in the meantime that rival the Bat staff.

shrug. That's the nature oif the game... that we find better weapons as time progresses.

But I retain the title, "Necromancer extraordinaire".

Nyar nyar!

It seems you are really upset about that staff thing. Come on, you really rock that you had all that patience to get to the legendary level.

Now to the topic.
1. Gandalf..LotR..ohhh. I am sure noone here has ever played MUME. It is a text based game based on LotR book. (www.mume.org and www.elvenrunes.com if you want to check this). Staves there play totally different (from you've seen in the movie) role. It gave addditional spell power, less mana cost etc to the mages. Just what I mentioned in my previous post. If you watch the movie again you won't see how much did Frodo use his Sting, that considered to be an artifact by Tolkien. I mean not all weapons that were supposed as Tolkien imagined are shown in the movie. To get better idea you need to read all LoTR series (+ The Silmarillion etc.)

2. Robin Hood thing. I can't argue much here. As I advised staff can give you some MR so you kill things with it - so it works with what you say.

3. The martial art of Kendo - Well we are talking about a fantasy game here. Just think about some fantasy character using some martial arts, like same Frodo using karate to kill a goblin.... ridiculous.


Just to summarize. I am not saying I don't like it. It just a suggestion. This part of forum is for different suggestions to share. In the end, GM is the one who decides. We just give an idea of what he can think about and may be implement.

[thingirl]

Just so you know, Badstench is famous for his rants.

[zmflavius]

It seems you are really upset about that staff thing. Come on, you really rock that you had all that patience to get to the legendary level.

Now to the topic.
1. Gandalf..LotR..ohhh. I am sure noone here has ever played MUME. It is a text based game based on LotR book. (www.mume.org (http://www.mume.org) and www.elvenrunes.com (http://www.elvenrunes.com) if you want to check this). Staves there play totally different (from you've seen in the movie) role. It gave addditional spell power, less mana cost etc to the mages. Just what I mentioned in my previous post. If you watch the movie again you won't see how much did Frodo use his Sting, that considered to be an artifact by Tolkien. I mean not all weapons that were supposed as Tolkien imagined are shown in the movie. To get better idea you need to read all LoTR series (+ The Silmarillion etc.)

2. Robin Hood thing. I can't argue much here. As I advised staff can give you some MR so you kill things with it - so it works with what you say.

3. The martial art of Kendo - Well we are talking about a fantasy game here. Just think about some fantasy character using some martial arts, like same Frodo using karate to kill a goblin.... ridiculous.


Just to summarize. I am not saying I don't like it. It just a suggestion. This part of forum is for different suggestions to share. In the end, GM is the one who decides. We just give an idea of what he can think about and may be implement.

You do realize that unarmed combat, or "martial arts", is the only way to get the highest MR in the game unless you have access to a very, very expensive weapon no longer in the game?

[thingirl]

And if your Unarmed Combat, Weaponry, and Weaponry: Slashing skills are 80, 84, and 83 respectively, that Unarmed gives you a higher MR than SSL. It's only the SP that keep Alanne wielding SSL.

[psychoadept]

And if your Unarmed Combat, Weaponry, and Weaponry: Slashing skills are 80, 84, and 83 respectively, that Unarmed gives you a higher MR than SSL. It's only the SP that keep Alanne wielding SSL.

Well, I can attest from experience that even thought Unarmed gives you a higher MR, your survivability is higher with the SSL simply based on the special attacks.

[Elrond]

With my copper-emblazoned broadsword (+36 MR), unarmed lvl 100 is only +2 better than Weaponry and Weaponry-slashing at lvl 100 each!

[thingirl]

Huh. That's the same difference for me. And yes, the Specials and the SP make up for the 2 MR.

[Badstench]

Majesty suggested:
It seems you are really upset about that staff thing.
Damn right!

... but I say that with a rueful grin.

In retrospect, I don't begrudge the fact that all my effort toward reaching legendary status in staves and necromancy for the benefit of Tzal-Toalth was thwarted by the appearance of Treilra's staff. I still have those legendary skills, and benefit with the new weapons just as much as everyone else.

As I said, game development is a part of progress, which every player craves for their character.

Well said, Majesty, but minus several million points for not knowing the subject of your remark.

Let it henceforth be known that Badstench will often say things just to see what response he'll get :rolleyes:

Still, your comment was the first post I've seen from you. Welcome to the forum.