Lord of the Rings ....

[Elrond]

Over the past week, I completed my latest reading of the Lord of the Rings. As usual, it was a tremendous read that fed the flame of my Tolkien fantasy. Dang it, I wanted to jump in there and be part of the tale!

I started the reading a few months ago and stopped at page 400'ish. But over the past week, I've dedicated all my free time to completing the reading, logging in 150 pages a night!

With LotR being what it is, I wonder if it is worthy of a discussion thread in the forum! Not an "all praise" thread as I've got a few questions about the novels; but an open discussion thread ......

[Oldschool]

Worthy of a thread - and a rep for that matter.

Let the discussion begin...........

[Doolipalally]

I'm in!

Every time I re-read it something new occurs to me. Anything strike you this time through?

[Elrond]

I'm in!

Every time I re-read it something new occurs to me. Anything strike you this time through?

Now that you mention it, yes! There were many things that I now remember. But one of the most notable is that Frodo, Sam, and Smeajol were traveling from the dead marshes to Ithilien by night due to Smeajol's fear of the sun. But after meeting up with Faramir, they seemed to be traveling by day!

I was reading quickly and didn't go back to check; but it could be that I missed that the Lord of the Nazgul had worked his magic to obscure the sun.

Another point that was sort of like a hick-up was Sam's wearing of the ring in Cirith Ungol. I would have thought that Sauron would have picked up on that right away.

[cddanforth]

A bit off topic, but I just reread the Hobbit for the first time in ages. It's a lot less mature than I had remembered but still just as enjoyable. I never realized how many similar threads to LoTR there are! Spiders, sting smiting spiders, stone door in mountainside that won't open, meeting Elrond for advice in Rivendell, unsuccesful attempt at crossing the misty mountains, begins with a party in hobbiton, eagles arriving to save them in the nick of time, and on and on. Just makes me wonder if he took ideas from the Hobbit and expanded them into a broader and more mature vision. Also how much his ideas about Sauron and Mordor had changed between his references to "the Necromancer" in the Hobbit and his writing of LoTR.

As far as Sauron not picking up on Sam wearing the ring...it's obviously tough to say, but maybe his attention was on the white tower and his gathering armies? Good catch though, I do remember the rules regarding when Sauron can actually see someone wearing the ring to be a bit vague. Still that close to Mordor you'd think he'd get at least a tickle or an inkling :)

[Elrond]

A bit off topic, but I just reread the Hobbit for the first time in ages. It's a lot less mature than I had remembered but still just as enjoyable. I never realized how many similar threads to LoTR there are! Spiders, sting smiting spiders, stone door in mountainside that won't open, meeting Elrond for advice in Rivendell, unsuccesful attempt at crossing the misty mountains, begins with a party in hobbiton, eagles arriving to save them in the nick of time, and on and on. Just makes me wonder if he took ideas from the Hobbit and expanded them into a broader and more mature vision. Also how much his ideas about Sauron and Mordor had changed between his references to "the Necromancer" in the Hobbit and his writing of LoTR.

As far as Sauron not picking up on Sam wearing the ring...it's obviously tough to say, but maybe his attention was on the white tower and his gathering armies? Good catch though, I do remember the rules regarding when Sauron can actually see someone wearing the ring to be a bit vague. Still that close to Mordor you'd think he'd get at least a tickle or an inkling :)

Regarding the apparent repetition of ideas from the Hobbit to the LotR, I would have to say that I didn't not notice them since I was not reading "critically!" However, it is safe to say that there is a certain "chain or wheel" of events that recurs historically in Middle Earth or in the real world. Pretty much like the cycle of human life: sperm and egg, fetus, infant, child, teenager, young, mature, old, dead! We could say the same of civilizations and kingdoms.

As to the issue of Sam wearing of the ring, we know that in the end Sauron's eye turned to Mount Doom when Frodo wore the ring and proclaimed himself owner with Gollum rescuing him and the quest. So, that goes for the argument that Sauron should have picked up on Sam. However, it is also noted that Sam only wore the ring twice. So maybe the ring needs some time to accustom to a new owner.

[cddanforth]

Regarding the apparent repetition of ideas from the Hobbit to the LotR, I would have to say that I didn't not notice them since I was not reading "critically!" However, it is safe to say that there is a certain "chain or wheel" of events that recurs historically in Middle Earth or in the real world. Pretty much like the cycle of human life: sperm and egg, fetus, infant, child, teenager, young, mature, old, dead! We could say the same of civilizations and kingdoms.

As to the issue of Sam wearing of the ring, we know that in the end Sauron's eye turned to Mount Doom when Frodo wore the ring and proclaimed himself owner with Gollum rescuing him and the quest. So, that goes for the argument that Sauron should have picked up on Sam. However, it is also noted that Sam only wore the ring twice. So maybe the ring needs some time to accustom to a new owner.

Hmm yeah I'd have to agree with you that it seems like a bit of an oversight. Normally this sort of thing really bugs me, but with such a classic masterpiece I'm more than willing to give Tolien the benefit of the doubt and just assume Sauron's attentions were elsewhere. Still an interesting topic though. Not something I've ever considered!

[Oldschool]

I can't recall the exact time line but the main reason the rest of the Fellowship and their allies knocked on the gate of Mordor was to provide a distraction for Frodo and Sam.

[Elrond]

I can't recall the exact time line but the main reason the rest of the Fellowship and their allies knocked on the gate of Mordor was to provide a distraction for Frodo and Sam.

True! And Sauron was challenged by Aragon, Isildur's Heir, using the Palantir Stone of Orthanc. That happened after Sauron learned that Saruman has captured halflings (Pippin's looking into the same Orthanc stone); and he sent Nazgul that way to get the ring back. But they came back with news that Orthanc was sacked by the West. So, Sauron had his attention elsewhere, for sure.

[texlaw1992]

That was the only one I did not read (just could not get into it). I'm sure most of you on this thread have. If anyone would care to post a summary, maybe it'll help me rekindle an interest.

[thingirl]

I probably ought to re-read all 3 LotR books, and Hobbit. I was like, 8 when dad read them out loud to me.

[Young Ned]

For me, the problem with the Silmarillion and all the later books was that their writing style was just too stiff and formal. They felt like a cross between the King James Old Testament and the appendices at the back of Return of the King (which were too boring for me to read for many years). Basically, he was writing a history rather than writing a story, so it just didn't sustain my interest as well as the original stories.

@Thingirl: I'd definitely recommend giving them a read now. You'll probably get a lot more out of them than when you were 8.

[Elrond]

For me, the problem with the Silmarillion and all the later books was that their writing style was just too stiff and formal. They felt like a cross between the King James Old Testament and the appendices at the back of Return of the King (which were too boring for me to read for many years). Basically, he was writing a history rather than writing a story, so it just didn't sustain my interest as well as the original stories.

Probably right; but I cannot be sure till I read the Silmarillion, or part of it at least. It is noted that I haven't read it yet. At least its introduction makes it clear that it predated the LotR for decades, and that Tolkien started writing it as early as 1917 to outline his world. Also noted that it was published 4 years after his death; so that there was no chance to "refine" it into a story.

[thingirl]

@ YN: I keep forgetting to ask mom to take me to the library. If I remember, I will.

[Oldschool]

Actually The Silmarillion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Silmarillion) is a collection of Tolkien's works that was put together by his son.

I've read it and agree it is definitely "different" from much of J.R.R. Tolkien's more popular work.

[cddanforth]

Actually The Silmarillion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Silmarillion) is a collection of Tolkien's works that was put together by his son.

I've read it and agree it is definitely "different" from much of J.R.R. Tolkien's more popular work.

Heheh beat me to the punch old school! You're right though, it is very different. I still really enjoyed it, but I was totally imersed in the world at the time. If you're looking for a good romp of a story Silmarillion is definately not for you, but if you're interested in the world and the history then it's facinating.

[Badstench]

The movie, given that Newline cinema aquiesced to a trilogy, was quite thorough.

Lots of stuff was missed because of time and money constraints. My sister was unhappy that Tom Bombadil was omitted.

In all honesty, Tom Bombadil's story was superfluous to the telling of the tale; even in the books, his inclusion wasn't necessary.

'Old Man Willow' was a vestige of the walking, talking trees; Ents, by name. But Old Man Willow was portrayed as a baddie.

He was kin to Treebeard.

[Elrond]

The movie, given that Newline cinema aquiesced to a trilogy, was quite thorough.

Lots of stuff was missed because of time and money constraints. My sister was unhappy that Tom Bombadil was omitted.

In all honesty, Tom Bombadil's story was superfluous to the telling of the tale; even in the books, his inclusion wasn't necessary.

'Old Man Willow' was a vestige of the walking, talking trees; Ents, by name. But Old Man Willow was portrayed as a baddie.

He was kin to Treebeard.

Dang! I loved Tom Bombadil's part in the trilogy! I thought that it was an intricate part of the plot. Heck, one of the swords that the hobbits got from the old forest brought down the Witch King of Angmar!

Too bad Tolkien didn't have the time to expand further in his world development and story writing! Maybe Bombadil would have played a role like Gandalf's in one of his stories!

[Young Ned]

'Old Man Willow' was a vestige of the walking, talking trees; Ents, by name. But Old Man Willow was portrayed as a baddie.

He was kin to Treebeard.
Treebeard mentions somewhere that some ents eventually go treelike, staying in one spot and eventually taking root, and that some trees eventually go entlike, acquiring some ability to think and move. I always figured Old Man Willow was one of the latter, a tree that went entlike.

Dang! I loved Tom Bombadil's part in the trilogy! I thought that it was an intricate part of the plot. Heck, one of the swords that the hobbits got from the old forest brought down the Witch King of Angmar!
Very true, that is a very nice detail in the book. But think about it: who on earth could actually have played Tom Bombadil on a big screen without seeming ridiculous? I don't think even Robin Williams could have pulled it off, and I can't think of anyone else who'd come close.

[thingirl]

Wasn't he the giant who picked them up after the Eagles left them on a ledge?

[Doolipalally]

Wasn't he the giant who picked them up after the Eagles left them on a ledge?

I'm trying to work out what you might be referring to, and failing miserably. So the simple answer will have to be 'no'.

Tom Bombadil is someone they meet in between the Shire and Bree, when their attempt to evade Black Riders by going into the Old Forest gets them into trouble.

[thingirl]

It might have been in Hobbit. In fact, I think it was :o.

[Badstench]

Be careful, thingirl... I think you are remembering scenes from the movie.

Our intrepid group of hobbits escaped from the black riders by making a timely dash to Buckleberry ferry and crossing the Brandywine river, which is the eastern border of The Shire.

At this point the movie differs from the book.

In the movie, the hobbiits are seen to enter the village of Bree.

In the book, they first have a harrowing encounter with 'Old Man Willow' in the Old Forest, but are rescued by Tom Bombadil. Next, they have another harrowing encounter with a Barrow Wight, and are rescued by Tom Bombadil again.

Ah! I am reminded of my D&D playing days... I liked the idea of barrow wights and made them a feature of my melieu.

[Doolipalally]

Wasn't he the giant who picked them up after the Eagles left them on a ledge?

Be careful, thingirl... I think you are remembering scenes from the movie.

:confused: Don't remember any giants in the movie!

TG, you might be thinking of Beorn - big bear-like man (in more ways than one). In 'The Hobbit' the eagles rescue the dwarves and Bilbo when they're treed by the goblins after escaping the Misty Mountains. Then they stay with Beorn before entering Mirkwood.

I don't think there are any giants as such in Tolkien, unless they appear in some of the background material I haven't read. Anyone?

[Elrond]

:confused: Don't remember any giants in the movie!

TG, you might be thinking of Beorn - big bear-like man (in more ways than one). In 'The Hobbit' the eagles rescue the dwarves and Bilbo when they're treed by the goblins after escaping the Misty Mountains. Then they stay with Beorn before entering Mirkwood.

I don't think there are any giants as such in Tolkien, unless they appear in some of the background material I haven't read. Anyone?

You're right, Dooli. The only reference to a giant picking up anyone after an eagle rescue is Beorn.

As to giants mentioned in the books, there are the mountain giants hurling rocks when Gandalf, the dwarves, and Bilbo were on the high pass in the misty mountains before being captured by Goblins. The second reference is when Gandalf and the fellowship were attempting to pass over the Caradhras mountain (Redhorn Gate) over the misty mountains. They saw/felt giants hurling rocks in the blizzard that forced them to go back and enter Moria through the West Door of Moria, the Hollin Gate.

[Doolipalally]

You're right, Dooli. The only reference to a giant picking up anyone after an eagle rescue is Beorn.

As to giants mentioned in the books, there are the mountain giants hurling rocks when Gandalf, the dwarves, and Bilbo were on the high pass in the misty mountains before being captured by Goblins. The second reference is when Gandalf and the fellowship were attempting to pass over the Caradhras mountain (Redhorn Gate) over the misty mountains. They saw/felt giants hurling rocks in the blizzard that forced them to go back and enter Moria through the West Door of Moria, the Hollin Gate.

Ah, thanks, I had a nagging feeling there was something I was missing. It's odd to think that there are these beings who just live in the mountains and throw rocks at each other occasionally, though. Not one of his well-developed concepts!

[thingirl]

I got Hobbit from the Library. You were right, Dooli. I was thinking of Beorn.

Also, after getting out of the Goblin Hole, Gandelf said (I think, I read about 2/3 of it yesterday) that He 'would have to get a descant giant to block that up.'

[Doolipalally]

I got Hobbit from the Library. You were right, Dooli. I was thinking of Beorn.

Also, after getting out of the Goblin Hole, Gandelf said (I think, I read about 2/3 of it yesterday) that He 'would have to get a descant giant to block that up.'

Ooh, yes he does. I'd forgotten that one completely.

(Although he probably said a decent giant. A descant giant would be one that sang in a very high voice... :))

[thingirl]

*chokes spell check*

[Elrond]

..... It's odd to think that there are these beings who just live in the mountains and throw rocks at each other occasionally, though. Not one of his well-developed concepts!

Surprisingly, "The Hobbit" and LotR are a fast-paced fantasy writing. Despite totaling more than 1300 pages, the scope of events is so huge that details, in many instances, are lacking. So, the giants in the misty mountains hurling rocks are a "hasty" reference or sentence to add flavor to the text. I don't think they are a concept, say like elves or hobbits.

Still, I wouldn't be surprised to find other points of argument and discussion in the work. I posted one in the 4th post in this thread.

[Doolipalally]

Surprisingly, "The Hobbit" and LotR are a fast-paced fantasy writing. Despite totaling more than 1300 pages, the scope of events is so huge that details, in many instances, are lacking. So, the giants in the misty mountains hurling rocks are a "hasty" reference or sentence to add flavor to the text. I don't think they are a concept, say like elves or hobbits.


I only half agree with you, because I think you have to remember that he was creating this world in his head for years before he ever got round to writing the published books. Sometimes I think he puts in references to concepts which are established in his mind but which just exist as a tantalising passing mention because they have no direct bearing on the story - as you say, flavour text. I'm a bit wary of speculating on how much detail ever existed about the mountain giants because I'm aware that there are at least ten volumes of work published after his death which I haven't read - I stopped at the Silmarillion.

And I wouldn't want to be 'hasty'! :)

[Badstench]

On the subject of giants:

They're big buggers!

Why is it that when I think of stories where a giant chases someone, they stomp and thunder, crash and boom? They rant in a voice that is deep and loud.

And they chuck rocks!

C.S Lewis had a whole book in the Narnia series that emulated the preconception of rock chucking, booming voiced giants.

When Gulliver walked and talked in Lilliput, he was loud and booming.

The Never Ending Story had a giant that was made of stone.

The All Blacks beat the Welsh again.

[Doolipalally]

On the subject of giants:

The All Blacks beat the Welsh again.

lol - you're just testing to see if we're reading to the end, aren't you?

[thingirl]

I hate to side track, but my Pastor is hilarious. We have a social time during a short break in Worship. Mr. Scott always starts it off with football news. It was actually cheered that "his Packers" lost.

Anyway, back on track, I finished Hobbit last night. I started on Fellowship to-day. I find it interesting that the first chapter of Hobbit is titled "An Unexpected Party", while the first of Fellowship is "A long-expected Party".

[Doolipalally]

Anyway, back on track, I finished Hobbit last night. I started on Fellowship to-day. I find it interesting that the first chapter of Hobbit is titled "An Unexpected Party", while the first of Fellowship is "A long-expected Party".

Well spotted. It's a deliberate echo. I'm surrounded by packing mess and can't right at the moment lay my hands on my copy of Tolkien's letters, but I've a feeling he refers to it somewhere.

[thingirl]

Also, both Bilbo and Frodo were 50 when their adventures started. And, didn't both of them start in May? And I had forgotten about this, Both their b-days (fictional though they are) are on Sept. 22, which is only 2 days after mine. :)

[cddanforth]

I hate to side track, but my Pastor is hilarious. We have a social time during a short break in Worship. Mr. Scott always starts it off with football news. It was actually cheered that "his Packers" lost.

Anyway, back on track, I finished Hobbit last night. I started on Fellowship to-day. I find it interesting that the first chapter of Hobbit is titled "An Unexpected Party", while the first of Fellowship is "A long-expected Party".

Yeah I just finsished re-reading the hobbit as well, and was stunned by the number of connections between the Hobbit and LoTR. I think it's discussed earlier in this thread as well, but as you go through the books I'm sure you'll find many more.
Heheh I have to agree about the giants not being particularly well fleshed out. I remember as a little kid, reading them for the first time and expecting them to come up again at some point in a more substantial capacity (other then laghing rock chuckers), and being a little disapointed.
I've also been flipping back through the Silmarillion and have to rethink my previous comment on it. Granted there are some purely historical/academic sections that could be seen as dragging on by those who aren't interested in the background, but then there are some really exciting aspects as well, including battles with Dragons and Balrogs and relatives of Shelob (Ungoliant) who almost eat up the whole world, and gods etc. Also some really amazing revelations about Gandalf and that Sauron was once the chief Lieutenant of an even greater evil.

I also had no idea until I read the Silmarillion that Gandalf was actually a lesser God!
Anyway, my point is that if you're really interested in middle-earth, then I would recomend you disregard the claims of boredom regarding the Silmarillion and give it a try :)

[thingirl]

OK, why did I read the spoiler? WTH?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? Although, that does explain a lot of things.

[Elrond]

Sauron was also a lesser god before going over to Morgoth.

[Young Ned]

Anyway, my point is that if you're really interested in middle-earth, then I would recomend you disregard the claims of boredom regarding the Silmarillion and give it a try :)

Admittedly, I was still pretty young (in my teens) when I read the Silmarillion. I really should give it another try. Several books I didn't care for then have turned out to be much better when read more recently. :)

[cddanforth]

Admittedly, I was still pretty young (in my teens) when I read the Silmarillion. I really should give it another try. Several books I didn't care for then have turned out to be much better when read more recently. :)

So true Ned. I've lost track of how many books I've reread in adulthood and loved which I just wasn't ready for when I first read them. Same goes for food!

[thingirl]

Sauron was also a lesser god before going over to Morgoth.

I was wondering if that was the case. Still, HIM? And he got captured, too. Those Ringwraiths are even more scary now.

[Oldschool]

So true Ned. I've lost track of how many books I've reread in adulthood and loved which I just wasn't ready for when I first read them. Same goes for food!

Ditto cddandforth and have a rep. Valid points - love the food comment.

[Taleria]

Dang! I loved Tom Bombadil's part in the trilogy! I thought that it was an intricate part of the plot. Heck, one of the swords that the hobbits got from the old forest brought down the Witch King of Angmar!

Too bad Tolkien didn't have the time to expand further in his world development and story writing! Maybe Bombadil would have played a role like Gandalf's in one of his stories!

I thought I read somewhere that Tolkien didn't think much of Bombadil. Kind of in his own little world and all that; not too interested in the affairs that affected the whole of Middle Earth, much less do anything to help. But to be fair, the hobbits weren't interested, either. They were sort of forced to take part by circumstance.

However, I agree with you that Bombadil's part in the books was interesting. Sure, the story could have been told without his part, and without the mushroom fiasco with the farmer, but these were at least action scenes that lent atmosphere and a glimpse into the hobbit world view, so I don't mind that they were left in. See, what bugs me are all the unnecessary songs. Talk about space-wasting.

I personally liked Bombadil as a character. He was incredibly powerful, without being arrogant about it, like Aragorn could be sometimes. I was disappointed I didn't get to see him again at the end of the war.

[thingirl]

I agree entirely with Taleria. Hey, how did the hobbits get their swords in the movie? I know it's not important for Frodo, as he got Sting, but for the others... (BTW, I'm on the Two Towers. They just met Treebeard.)

[Oldschool]

I don't think this has been mentioned but some of Tolkien's works, incluing LOTR, was also inspired by his experiences in WW I as well as his views on industrialization.

[Doolipalally]

I don't think this has been mentioned but some of Tolkien's works, incluing LOTR, was also inspired by his experiences in WW I as well as his views on industrialization.

Very true. The description of the Dead Marshes came from one of the horrible things he saw in that war.

He always emphatically denied that any of his work was meant to be allegorical, though, so it's a bad idea to draw too many direct parallels between characters and concepts in the book and what they might represent in reality.

[smv1973]

I agree entirely with Taleria. Hey, how did the hobbits get their swords in the movie? I know it's not important for Frodo, as he got Sting, but for the others... (BTW, I'm on the Two Towers. They just met Treebeard.)

The hobbits got their swords from Aragorn while they were at Weathertop. Galadriel also gave Merry and Pippin daggers.

[cddanforth]

I don't think this has been mentioned but some of Tolkien's works, incluing LOTR, was also inspired by his experiences in WW I as well as his views on industrialization.

Holy crap I hadn't heard that! Makes a lot of sense though...I'll have to keep that in mind next time I go through them.
Also I think in the movies they explain where they got the swords and daggers in the extended version. May have been left out of the original.

[thingirl]

I think we have extended. But, I remeber very little.

[Elrond]

I agree entirely with Taleria. Hey, how did the hobbits get their swords in the movie? I know it's not important for Frodo, as he got Sting, but for the others... (BTW, I'm on the Two Towers. They just met Treebeard.)

The hobbits got their swords from Aragorn while they were at Weathertop. Galadriel also gave Merry and Pippin daggers.

Merry and Pippin got their swords from the Barrow-wights in the Barrow Downs in the Old Forest. After Bombadil rescued them and broke the curse of the Barrow Downs, he took out the loot and the hobbits took what they wanted.

Unless my memory has slipped considerably, "Thingirl" should have read that in the Fellowship of the Ring, Book 1, Chapter VIII: Fog on the Barrow Downs.

[Badstench]

I used to think I knew everything about the Lord of the Rings, but given Elrond's expertise and fondness for the story... I have no comment.

I'm a Saggitarian.

Which won't make sense until the astrology post is added in exactly 9 days.

[Oldschool]

Some interesting links that contain more interesting ones.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Ronald_Reuel_Tolkien

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lord_of_the_Rings

http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page

[Young Ned]

I agree entirely with Taleria. Hey, how did the hobbits get their swords in the movie?

The hobbits got their swords from Aragorn while they were at Weathertop. Galadriel also gave Merry and Pippin daggers.

Merry and Pippin got their swords from the Barrow-wights in the Barrow Downs in the Old Forest. After Bombadil rescued them and broke the curse of the Barrow Downs, he took out the loot and the hobbits took what they wanted.

Unless my memory has slipped considerably, "Thingirl" should have read that in the Fellowship of the Ring, Book 1, Chapter VIII: Fog on the Barrow Downs.

Read her question again. Smv was answering what she actually asked, as indicated by the part I've bolded.

[thingirl]

6 Hours, 20 minutes. Ned, you spoiled my sport. Oh well. And yes, my thought AFTER reading the Barrow Downs chapter. "Hey, wait? Bombadail saved them from the thingie and gve them their swords. But if Bobmadial wasn't in the movie..."

[Young Ned]

Er, sorry, what sport was that?

[thingirl]

Figuratively clubbing Elrond over the head.