Forum members, please read

[Badstench]

I'm a moderator of the forum

I'm also a player of the game. As such, I have no more advantage in the game than you for being a moderator.

But in frequenting the forum, I was often frustrated by trying to find bits of information within threads that had multiple pages of posts.

I often thought it would be good if someone would delete the posts that were superfluous to the thread; the sideways comments and one-liners that meant nothing.

So I asked the other mods what they thought.

The answers were mostly positive, but with the following riders:

1) This question should be thrown open to the forum members, and only acted on by a majority vote.

2) Members who are proud of their "quantity" posts will be affected by seeing their statistics change.

3) Deletions should be permanent (ie; you won't see a line in any particular thread that says a deletion was made... it just vanishes.)

4) This is more relevant to gaming information, not the Real World threads.

The negatives of doing this are....

1) History is lost.

2) Prolific posters will lose their "standings"

3) The personal banter between forum members will, likewise, be lost.

The positives of doing this are....

1) New members will find the information they need quicker.

2) Old members can stop worrying about their dick-head comments.

3) The forum will appear more game-oriented and professional, and be more accessible.

****************

So... without starting a pole at this stage, I'd like some feed back from you... the forum members.

The question is...

Should the forum be "cleaned out"?

[Doolipalally]

I haven't had a problem finding things on the forum on the rare occasions I've needed to do so. The search function seems to work OK.

I would be very very wary of deleting material (wearing my professional librarian's hat now, and also that of someone who's spent a lot of time working with archivists). I know of an awful lot of cases where information was thrown away or deleted because it did not seem relevant at the time, but was subsequently found to have value.

I realise that you may primarily be talking about the 'banter' posts, but often posts contain both chat and information (which, to my way of thinking, is the way it should be). The task of going through threads making the appraisal decisions about what to keep and what to get rid of would be extremely time-consuming, and it's in precisely those circumstances, where every decision has to be individual and subjective, that mistakes are often made.


My feeling is that if a forum thread contains information that is genuinely useful to other players of the game, then that information should also be available on the wiki. The forum is for discussion and for community interaction. The wiki is a repository of information. The two functions are complementary, but separate.


I would also regret it if this forum became more 'game-oriented and professional' ('professional' in what sense, by the way?) if that meant that people were discouraged from the light-hearted chat that makes it a good place to be.


(Oh, and if people are worried about their 'dick-head comments', why can't they just edit or delete their own old posts?)

[Badstench]

Exactly the sort of feedback I was looking for... thanks Dooli.

as for your last comment:
(Oh, and if people are worried about their 'dick-head comments', why can't they just edit or delete their own old posts?)
I've often been messaged privately by people asking for things to be deleted permanently. The current format only allows for "invisible" deletions.

When I exercise this power as a mod, I look at the overall context of the conversation. Deleting one post might mean deleting others, which could create a snowballing effect.

[Doolipalally]

I've often been messaged privately by people asking for things to be deleted permanently. The current format only allows for "invisible" deletions.


Sorry, not sure what you mean here. If I delete a post of mine, it goes. Are you saying it's still somehow visible? What do you mean by an 'invisible' deletion?

[spencer]

I haven't had a problem finding things on the forum on the rare occasions I've needed to do so. The search function seems to work OK.

I would be very very wary of deleting material (wearing my professional librarian's hat now, and also that of someone who's spent a lot of time working with archivists). I know of an awful lot of cases where information was thrown away or deleted because it did not seem relevant at the time, but was subsequently found to have value.

I realise that you may primarily be talking about the 'banter' posts, but often posts contain both chat and information (which, to my way of thinking, is the way it should be). The task of going through threads making the appraisal decisions about what to keep and what to get rid of would be extremely time-consuming, and it's in precisely those circumstances, where every decision has to be individual and subjective, that mistakes are often made.


My feeling is that if a forum thread contains information that is genuinely useful to other players of the game, then that information should also be available on the wiki. The forum is for discussion and for community interaction. The wiki is a repository of information. The two functions are complementary, but separate.


I would also regret it if this forum became more 'game-oriented and professional' ('professional' in what sense, by the way?) if that meant that people were discouraged from the light-hearted chat that makes it a good place to be.


(Oh, and if people are worried about their 'dick-head comments', why can't they just edit or delete their own old posts?)


I pretty much agree with dooli's well-explained and well-thought post. I don't give a rat's bottom about the number of posts, but I do like the exchange of witticisms that creep into the forum on a somewhat regular basis. I am sure that mods are quick to delete otherwise inappropriate posts that contain especially foul language, culturally-insensitive remarks and spitefulness towards other forum members. To me, the aforementioned examples are the only types of posts that I would like to see deleted. Having said all of that, I almost never search for a post, so I have no personal reason for being desirous of a change.

[scout1idf]

I haven't had a problem finding things on the forum on the rare occasions I've needed to do so. The search function seems to work OK.

I would be very very wary of deleting material (wearing my professional librarian's hat now, and also that of someone who's spent a lot of time working with archivists). I know of an awful lot of cases where information was thrown away or deleted because it did not seem relevant at the time, but was subsequently found to have value.

I realise that you may primarily be talking about the 'banter' posts, but often posts contain both chat and information (which, to my way of thinking, is the way it should be). The task of going through threads making the appraisal decisions about what to keep and what to get rid of would be extremely time-consuming, and it's in precisely those circumstances, where every decision has to be individual and subjective, that mistakes are often made.


My feeling is that if a forum thread contains information that is genuinely useful to other players of the game, then that information should also be available on the wiki. The forum is for discussion and for community interaction. The wiki is a repository of information. The two functions are complementary, but separate.


I would also regret it if this forum became more 'game-oriented and professional' ('professional' in what sense, by the way?) if that meant that people were discouraged from the light-hearted chat that makes it a good place to be.


(Oh, and if people are worried about their 'dick-head comments', why can't they just edit or delete their own old posts?)

I agree with you as well.

One of the things that I liked about the old forum was going back to page 1 and reading the old posts from the beginning. All the little comments that were made back and forth by members that are no longer around. Reading "history" as it was being made, so to speak.

I would vote to let future players read the same from us that we can read from our predecessors. Please don't ruin their experience for them.....

[Lyrehc]

I am a fairly new member both to Sryth and the forum and haven't said much but I do use the search feature and read old threads relating to whatever adventure I'm on extensively. From that perspective, I find the banter and other comments helpful. It actually helped to draw me into this game because I could see that not only is it something I can play as my time allows, but that there is a camaraderie between other players so that it's not a game played entirely in isolation.

[Oldschool]

Actually I wondering the same thing about the deleting mechanic of the forum as I've deleted numerous posts of my own. I've only deleted a few from other members and then at their request except for mistakenly duplicated ones.

I could have it confused but I don't think so as I recently (before this thread's creation) asked Scarbrow about the mechanic and he was very specific in explaining it.

There are two types of deleting. "Delete" and "Physcially remove".

And this is also part of the confusion in that 'staff' have functions and see things differently from non staff. I'm not entirely sure if physically remove is available to everyone or just staff and I didn't think to ask Scarbrow or anyone else for that matter.

Deleting will delete it but leave an empty post box there where staff can view the post or manage it. Physically removing it does just that. I like the smoother flow and look of physically removing them but after speaking with Scarbrow who echoed Dooli's and others' sentiments I think just deleting them so that they are retrievable is a better option. My understanding from Scarbrow is that only staff can see the deleted post boxes - hopefully that explains the "invisible" posts.

As for the banter posts I totally agree that they part of what makes this forum what it is - a friendly community. And I don't wanna speak for him but from discussions with him I think Scarbrow sees it the same.

And my personal take on deleting posts (banter or otherwise) pretty much falls along Spencer's, Dooli's and Scout's line of thinking. Actually I just moved some somewhat off-topic posts to a more relevant thread. And I thought briefly to "soft" delete a couple follow up replies in that conversation. Especially since after I moved them it seemed stilted but thought against it opting to post a reply indicating that I moved the conversation. And the main reason I did that was so that anyone reading them would understand the somewhat stilted continuity.

And I don't think an off-topic bantering every now and then is problematic as long as it's just a squeaky wheel and doesn't de-rail the thread.

As for the Richard Noggin ;) comments I agree folks can edit them out or delete them themselves. If they feel really strongly and worry about staff viewing them/resurrecting them physically removing them is still an option especially if it's the actual poster asking. I can't help but chuckle as I'm tempted to google an appropriate image. Anyone need a new avatar? ;)

And that last "exchange" is also part of the reason I feel that the bantering should remain since I'm more prone than most to do so. At least I stuck that one in an on topic post - my redemption continues it seems. :rolleyes::)

[Havoc]

My vote is for no deletions. The banter is part of the character of the forum, and the wiki can prove as a content-rich resource if needed.

[shadowblack]

Indeed. If the banter gets too out of hand it can be moved to its own thread with a post linking to the moved posts (I've done that a few times in the past).

[thingirl]

As for the banter posts I totally agree that they part of what makes this forum what it is - a friendly community.

And I don't think an off-topic bantering every now and then is problematic as long as it's just a squeaky wheel and doesn't de-rail the thread.

My vote is for no deletions. The banter is part of the character of the forum, and the wiki can prove as a content-rich resource if needed.

Indeed. If the banter gets too out of hand it can be moved to its own thread with a post linking to the moved posts (I've done that a few times in the past).

Yes, exactly.

And if it's personal banter between two members and it shows up in a lot of threads, then they can take it to PMs. Or just put it on a side comment like "[blah, blah, blah, contribute to the thread] (By the way, I just noticed...)"

[zmflavius]

I have to agree with the banter staying. The banter makes the forum much more lively, as mentioned above.

[Scarbrow]

First, my vote is also for the banter staying. I've always seen that as a charming feature of the forum, and everybody who knows me knows I share Dooli's position: The repository of information is on the wiki, the forum is a friendlier place where personal conversation (to a certain common sense limit) is allowed among the information.

Second, to finally precise the deletion mechanics:

There are two types of deletions: "Soft" delete and "Physical" delete
All registered users can "soft" delete their own posts
Posts "soft" deleted can still be seen and recovered by mods and admins, but are completely invisible to users
Mods and admins can choose to "soft" delete or "physically" delete both their own and other's posts
After physical deletion, the post is unrecoverable. It's gone from the database. Only staff can do this.
Threads can also be "soft" or physically deleted, but only staff can affect them.
Deleted threads are the same as deleted posts, only staff can see them


Third, I think that for most practical purposes, soft deletion is enough, unless blatant trolling, personal insults or illegal behavior. As for myself, I never physically delete posts except my own "test" posts, or if some user directly asked me to delete one of his/hers.

[texlaw1992]

I read between the lines of Badstench's post as "This means YOU Thingirl" (lol).

I agree that the current "banter" should remain. If for some reason posts are deleted, I'm also assuming that reputation is not affected (as I'm sure most would object if that's the case).

Anyway, just my 2 cents worth.

[Scarbrow]

If for some reason posts are deleted, I'm also assuming that reputation is not affected (as I'm sure most would object if that's the case).

That's right. Once Reputation is added or substracted, only a direct action by an Admin can change it. So if one of your posts with reputation is deleted, you'll just lose the link on your CP (it will show N/A) but will keep whatever reputation and comments it earned.

[Needle]

I read between the lines of Badstench's post as "This means YOU Thingirl" (lol).



A-ha! I was waiting for someone to put in a bit of banter in a thread regarding deletion banter ;). Thanks texlaw!

I also think that banter should remain, by the way.

[thingirl]

Actually, Thingirl though that too. :)

Oldschool, you pay attention to what Badstench says now... ;)

(But really, we should keep this one on track.)

[Meduwyn]

I am a fairly new member both to Sryth and the forum and haven't said much but I do use the search feature and read old threads relating to whatever adventure I'm on extensively. From that perspective, I find the banter and other comments helpful. It actually helped to draw me into this game because I could see that not only is it something I can play as my time allows, but that there is a camaraderie between other players so that it's not a game played entirely in isolation.

I definitely think the banter should remain and I agree specifically with what Lyrehc had to say. It hasn't be so long since I joined the forum, either; and I can say that the friendly atmosphere created by all the bantering was a large part of why I started hanging out here.

For one thing, it gives us newer players a chance to get a feel for the older player's personalities and for the sryth culture in general. I have spent many an hour reading through old posts to that end.

If old posts start being cut, there might be a danger of creating an atmosphere of censureship. Imagine a forum where no one jumps on grammar or spelling mistakes and thingirl doesn't comment on everything. :(
Eeep! I know if I was worried about 'sounding professional' that I would start to second guess everything I posted. *shudder*

[texlaw1992]

Perhaps an atmosphere of "censorship"? You're slipping Med, I'll have to keep you on your toes (lol).

[Doolipalally]

Thanks to Scarbrow and Oldschool for clearing up the question about deleted posts!

I definitely think the banter should remain and I agree specifically with what Lyrehc had to say. It hasn't be so long since I joined the forum, either; and I can say that the friendly atmosphere created by all the bantering was a large part of why I started hanging out here.

For one thing, it gives us newer players a chance to get a feel for the older player's personalities and for the sryth culture in general. I have spent many an hour reading through old posts to that end.

If old posts start being cut, there might be a danger of creating an atmosphere of censureship. Imagine a forum where no one jumps on grammar or spelling mistakes and thingirl doesn't comment on everything. :(
Eeep! I know if I was worried about 'sounding professional' that I would start to second guess everything I posted. *shudder*

I think both Meduwyn and Lyrehc have made a useful point about the value for new members of being able to read through old conversations. I remember doing the same on the old forum when I first joined, now I come to think of it. It's easy for those of us who've been around for a while now to forget things like that!

I also agree with Meduwyn that knowing posts were going to be assessed and maybe deleted at a later date might be inhibiting. I know Badstench wasn't thinking in terms of censorship as such, but it's a complicated area.

[scout1idf]

That's right. Once Reputation is added or substracted, only a direct action by an Admin can change it. So if one of your posts with reputation is deleted, you'll just lose the link on your CP (it will show N/A) but will keep whatever reputation and comments it earned.
Thanks for clearing that up. I was wondering what the N/A's were on some of my reps.

[Arik]

I haven't had a problem finding things on the forum on the rare occasions I've needed to do so. The search function seems to work OK.

I would be very very wary of deleting material (wearing my professional librarian's hat now, and also that of someone who's spent a lot of time working with archivists). I know of an awful lot of cases where information was thrown away or deleted because it did not seem relevant at the time, but was subsequently found to have value.

I realise that you may primarily be talking about the 'banter' posts, but often posts contain both chat and information (which, to my way of thinking, is the way it should be). The task of going through threads making the appraisal decisions about what to keep and what to get rid of would be extremely time-consuming, and it's in precisely those circumstances, where every decision has to be individual and subjective, that mistakes are often made.


My feeling is that if a forum thread contains information that is genuinely useful to other players of the game, then that information should also be available on the wiki. The forum is for discussion and for community interaction. The wiki is a repository of information. The two functions are complementary, but separate.


I would also regret it if this forum became more 'game-oriented and professional' ('professional' in what sense, by the way?) if that meant that people were discouraged from the light-hearted chat that makes it a good place to be.


(Oh, and if people are worried about their 'dick-head comments', why can't they just edit or delete their own old posts?)


Agreed.

[Young Ned]

Looks like a pretty firm consensus has been achieved. I agree that the banter should stay, and that the wiki should be the information repository of choice. (Ironically, I just contributed to that earlier today by copying some information from here in the forum to the Wiki -- see the recent discussion of mount disposition in the "Questions for the GM" thread.)

[Badstench]

The "spring cleaning" idea has been shelved in light of feedback received to date.

I shall take my obsessive compulsive disorder against clutter and pack it into a dust-free container that will then be placed into a sterile environment and forgotten.

Thanks to all who took the time to offer opinions on this. Your input was gratefully received.

[Lightwielder]

My vote is for no deletions. The banter is part of the character of the forum, and the wiki can prove as a content-rich resource if needed.

I agree with Havoc.
If people need to easily access game-related info, they can use the wiki. If people need to ask a question, the Help Board rarely clutters with unnecessary conversation, like the other boards do.